Deaths everywhere, yet we are still going to work this morning. Why?

[TwirpingBird]

I am sitting here watching BBC breakfast with another harrowing video of ITU nurses at breaking point, ambulances lined up outside, 1800 dead yesterday, and headlines of 'lockdown isnt working', 'people arent complying' blah blah blah. Its all 'you need to follow the rules, you need to stay at home. I am seething.

My husband is leaving for work in an hour where he will enter 5 houses today to do completely non essential work because the government deem him a 'key worker'. My best friend will go to work in her office in a interior design company because she is a 'key worker'. Her husband will go to work giving quotes for kitchens in people's houses because his boss deems him a 'key worker'. None of my friends are on furlough. We are all seeing nobody outside of work. We are all sticking to the 'rules'. But how could we possibly expect the rules to work when everyone is still getting in their cars this morning?

I am raging angry. I am SICK and TIRED of being told 'follow the rules'. WE ARE!!! The rules make no bloody sense. And people are still dropping like flies, and experts are saying the lockdown isnt working, and the public are still being tarred as 'lacking empathy' because we are killing people. We are going to work! Kids are still in school! And then we come home and we do what we can but its never going to be enough. I am starting to wonder why I am bothering to hide myself away, managing a 2 year old and a newborn alone 5 days a week, naively thinking I am helping to manage transmission, when in reality its not helping at all because people are still at work.

@partyatthepalace

Because the economy has to keep going as best it can, or the knock effects of this are going to be even more horrendous than they already are.

Do people seriously not understand this?? It’s not about ‘only caring about money’, it’s about caring about people’s quality of life once this is over - the more debt we are carrying the weaker the economy is - and that means fewer jobs, lower quality public services, poorer mental and physical health.

We have to limit interaction as far as possible to stop the NHS collapsing, so industries that encourage a lot of mixing have to shut. The rest of us have to go to work if we can’t work from home.

I seriously wonder about people - do those of you who think everyone should stay home unless they work for the NHS think money grows on trees??

I do think a fair amount of people think that money must grow on trees.....

Rational seems to have evaporated!

Haven't RTFT, but it irritates me that the government (with the BBC obligingly not questioning their narrative) are putting all the focus on individual compliance rather than (a) employers forcing people into the office who could work from home, and (b) employers who don't do as much as they could to keep workers safe. Personal responsibility is certainly important, but my impression is that the vast majority of people are complying with the rules, and most virus transmission is as a result of hospital transmission or workplace contact.

I agree. My DH isn't an essential worker and his job can't be done from home so he has to go to work. The fact is, due to lockdown there's not much work for him to do and he's not needed, so therefore he has to travel on a crowded train to do practically nothing. He was laid off last time on full pay but they won't do the same this time or furlough them.

Are banks happy for you to just miss mortgage payments where you are @rowmaccerd? No repercussions? Seems an unusual banking system.

@bookworm14 I’m having to homeschool while looking after a toddler. It is unsafe. We are now limited to only doing school work in the hour he naps at lunchtime.

@rowmaccerd good for you, you obviously think that makes you a better person. I'm not going to take 3 weeks off unpaid to get myself in debt and put my DS at risk. My family comes first.

I feel like many of us, well everyone even if you're breaking some rules, are making huge sacrifices. Yet there's a huge gap with non essential workers who can't work from home going into work. I really put the re for this with the employers.

As pp's have mentioned there's loads of employers making people cone into work just because they can. This is ethically and morally gross tbh. And really selfish.

I totally understand why you're frustrated.

@Plussizejumpsuit

I feel like many of us, well everyone even if you're breaking some rules, are making huge sacrifices. Yet there's a huge gap with non essential workers who can't work from home going into work. I really put the re for this with the employers.

As pp's have mentioned there's loads of employers making people cone into work just because they can. This is ethically and morally gross tbh. And really selfish.

I totally understand why you're frustrated.

The problem is though the government is offering no support to some businesses. I work in a non essential factory job out of the home. This type of work has been specifically told to continue by the government. So there is no financial support. That's not the fault of my employers. They could close but they would still have outgoings to pay, rent on the buildings, overheads. How are they supposed to pay that with no government support and no earnings coming in? The business would go bust and that's 150 people out of a job.

They’ll have then missed 9 months of school. Same for uni students etc...

I can assure you that university students are still getting an education. It is simply being delivered differently. In her case all lectures were being recorded anyway, so they already had the infrastructure in place.

The difficulty is with courses with a practical element. DD is doing a science degree and has had just one lab practical since returning to university in October.

I can assure you that university students are still getting an education. It is simply being delivered differently. In her case all lectures were being recorded anyway, so they already had the infrastructure in place.

Absolutely this.

@LilyPond2

Haven't RTFT, but it irritates me that the government (with the BBC obligingly not questioning their narrative) are putting all the focus on individual compliance rather than (a) employers forcing people into the office who could work from home, and (b) employers who don't do as much as they could to keep workers safe. Personal responsibility is certainly important, but my impression is that the vast majority of people are complying with the rules, and most virus transmission is as a result of hospital transmission or workplace contact.

I've been saying this for weeks. People meeting outside are being scapegoated but it's obviously indoor mixing which is the main concern, whether that's in healthcare and care settings, offices and other workplaces or homes. To be fair on the BBC, there was an item on the Today programme this morning about the HSE doing inspections of workplaces where employees have reported them for not doing enough to keep them safe.

My mum is 84, she lives on her own, and so by the law of the land here she hasn't been allowed out or anyone else into her house for nearly 3 weeks

I thought this was the Isle of Man at first but it can't be as some of their restrictions have now been relaxed again.

Anyway I am glad that the UK has a care exemption for the elderly. Glad I don't live where you do.

The U.K. had a very successful first lockdown (a lot more than a few weeks) that got numbers down very substantially. The older population were confined to their homes in this period

No they weren't. People kept saying the over 70s should stay at home but there was no law saying they couldn't go out (bit impractical when the delivery slots were being hogged by able-bodied 35 year olds weeks in advance, so they needed to go out for food etc).

I honestly don't know why there is more open this lockdown than was open in the last. This time the figures are higher AND it's flu season, yet we're doing less to stop it. We need to shut everything down that is non essential, and should have done months ago.

@AlwaysLatte

I honestly don't know why there is more open this lockdown than was open in the last. This time the figures are higher AND it's flu season, yet we're doing less to stop it. We need to shut everything down that is non essential, and should have done months ago.

Economically we’re in a worse position

I can assure you that university students are still getting an education. It is simply being delivered differently. In her case all lectures were being recorded anyway, so they already had the infrastructure in place.

In theory, yes, in practice, it's very haphazard. Some of my son's lecturers have really made the effort, others are just giving links to last years' recorded lectures and not adding anything at all, not even doing "live" remote sessions. He's had just ONE face to face session (with a phd student) for the entire term. His lecturers aren't even on campus. "Blended" learning my arse! Some universities and some lecturers will have made supreme efforts to do their best, but others really aren't. I didn't believe my son at first and thought he was just making excuses, but since he's been studying at home for the last two weeks, I've watched some of his online sessions and some are pretty poor, one was supposed to be a "live" remote lecture, but it was basically just the lecturer giving a "live" welcome couple of minutes and then it went to last year's recorded lecture and the "live" lecturer logged off and that was it, didn't even return at the end to do a summary or conclusion or a Q&A session. If they're getting an "open university" experience, then their fees should be reduced accordingly.

Dh is off to work this morning and has to share a van with 2 other men to site, working with even more from all over the country when he gets there. The 2 men hes sharing a van with this morning were on social media (not dh) having a great time at a house party at the weekend
Does he work for himself? In which case refuse to let them work! Or for a company? In which case report the workers' behaviour to them as it's not a Covid secure workplace, which he is entitled by law to have. Those house party idiots should be fined and made to self isolate without pay.

@Plussizejumpsuit

I feel like many of us, well everyone even if you're breaking some rules, are making huge sacrifices. Yet there's a huge gap with non essential workers who can't work from home going into work. I really put the re for this with the employers.

As pp's have mentioned there's loads of employers making people cone into work just because they can. This is ethically and morally gross tbh. And really selfish.

I totally understand why you're frustrated.

If the govt don't want employers to operate, then they need to put financial support in place to cover their costs, etc. At the moment, it's only premises FORCED to close that can get any grants (pubs, restaurants, non essential shops etc). What are other businesses supposed to do when they still have rent, rates, insurance, utilities, staff, security, etc to pay, not to mention how are the business owners supposed to pay their own household bills with no income?

Let's not forgot the 3 million self employed who the Govt excluded from their support packages. If they don't work, how do they pay their bills?

It's fine and dandy for the lucky ones who are furloughed and getting at least 80% of their normal wages to sit at home. But what about everyone else? It's work or starve in a lot of cases.

@user1497207191

I can assure you that university students are still getting an education. It is simply being delivered differently. In her case all lectures were being recorded anyway, so they already had the infrastructure in place.

In theory, yes, in practice, it's very haphazard. Some of my son's lecturers have really made the effort, others are just giving links to last years' recorded lectures and not adding anything at all, not even doing "live" remote sessions. He's had just ONE face to face session (with a phd student) for the entire term. His lecturers aren't even on campus. "Blended" learning my arse! Some universities and some lecturers will have made supreme efforts to do their best, but others really aren't. I didn't believe my son at first and thought he was just making excuses, but since he's been studying at home for the last two weeks, I've watched some of his online sessions and some are pretty poor, one was supposed to be a "live" remote lecture, but it was basically just the lecturer giving a "live" welcome couple of minutes and then it went to last year's recorded lecture and the "live" lecturer logged off and that was it, didn't even return at the end to do a summary or conclusion or a Q&A session. If they're getting an "open university" experience, then their fees should be reduced accordingly.

What makes you think that the lack of face to face is the difference? If a lecturer is rubbish online I'm sure they would be bad face to face too. And a lecturer that is good will be good online. Students only really like face to face so they can socialise and see other students. Even then many do not turn up to lectures if they can watch recorded version. It's not cheaper to do the lectures online so the fees can't be reduced.

A genuine question - the law/guidance does require non-essential businesses where people can work at home to close. This can be enforced by the police. Why is not being enforced?
It is no harder to form an opinion about an essential/non-essential business than about an essential/non-essential journey for exercise a short distance away (which is actually allowed, while the non-essential workplace is not).
The non-essential workplaces will be spreading Covid-19 a lot more than journeys for exercise a short distance away.
Why not direct police time at enforcing Guidance/'rules' that actually make a difference to virus levels?
(Ditto law on face coverings)

And if you are being forced to go into work that you consider either non-essential or to be possible to do from home, would reporting it to the police be an option?

His lecturers aren't even on campus.

We're not allowed on campus. I would bloody love to be allowed on to campus again.

If they're getting an "open university" experience, then their fees should be reduced accordingly

Actually, if they were getting an OU experience they would be paying the same but would be getting a much better delivery of their course. I did a distance learning masters through another university a decade ago, which was awful. In contrast, I was very impressed by what my SIL was getting doing her first degree through OU and this s before the massive advances we've had in technology the past decade.

@partyatthepalace

Because the economy has to keep going as best it can, or the knock effects of this are going to be even more horrendous than they already are.

Do people seriously not understand this?? It’s not about ‘only caring about money’, it’s about caring about people’s quality of life once this is over - the more debt we are carrying the weaker the economy is - and that means fewer jobs, lower quality public services, poorer mental and physical health.

We have to limit interaction as far as possible to stop the NHS collapsing, so industries that encourage a lot of mixing have to shut. The rest of us have to go to work if we can’t work from home.

I seriously wonder about people - do those of you who think everyone should stay home unless they work for the NHS think money grows on trees??

But what encourages a lot of mixing more than a site with 400 people on it. Mostly traveling to work in vans with 4 or more people in it .

@bookmarket

If they're getting an "open university" experience, then their fees should be reduced accordingly

Actually, if they were getting an OU experience they would be paying the same but would be getting a much better delivery of their course. I did a distance learning masters through another university a decade ago, which was awful. In contrast, I was very impressed by what my SIL was getting doing her first degree through OU and this s before the massive advances we've had in technology the past decade.

Just because the course you did online wasn't good it doesn't mean they all are not good as every University. Universities are not one company doing the same thing. They are all different businesses and individual courses will be different too.

Sorry Belladonna12 I did not make my point clearly.

A previous poster said their DC was getting a poor teaching experience and then said 'if they are getting an OU experience, their fees should be adjusted accordingly' This is unfair to the OU, who have decades of teaching via distance learning and do an amazing job. Plus, their fees are now the same as a face to face degree. The fact I had a poor distance learning experience many years ago was down to that University alone - I was just able to make a comparison at the time, long before many DL degrees existed.