Anyone else thinks that sooner or later we will have to accept herd immunity unless virus mutates out of being dangerous?

[YogaLite]

My friend has just got covid second time, both times unwell, both times confirmed by tests, first time last spring.

Could it be that virus stays in the body and resurfaces when run down, like eg HPV or Lyme?

Even if vax are effective for some, if they have to be repeated every 6-12 months in 2 doses, that's a mammoth task for health services.

We would never know for whom vax is effective anyway so the preventative measures will have to stay for foreseeable anyway but lockdowns are unsustainable long term.
What's left but herd immunity??

Taking vitamin D has been mentioned extensively.
And especially for those with darker skin on winter days. And as we are staying undoors so much, even more important.
It does not make you immune, but it helps to keep your immune system on top condition.

Herd immunity through vaccination is exactly our policy. Naturally acquired herd immunity seems to be impossible according to all the articles I have read.

It won't be like the flu jab predictions because the mutations despite the media focus are not at the same rate. It will be easier in that respect if I remember correctly.

What people are describing as herd immunity isn't herd immunity. That's why they are not understanding. Total immunity to infection, whether through a vaccine or prior infection, is exceptionally rare. Both may "train" the immune system to fight off infection, reducing or eliminating reinfection for a period of time, or even forever. But there is always a risk that a more severe infection may occur. Nothing short of a cure can stop that, and cures for viral infections are rare.

Herd immunity doesn't stop people being a virus. It reduces transmission based on the fact that a significant number of people can fight off a virus, effectively preventing it being a foothold in a population. We have, for example, herd immunity for many flu viruses. They have been around for so long that the majority of us have an almost instant reaction to infection which fights off, or reduces the impact of, the flu virus attacking us. With the added neutral of a vaccine for flu, we can reinforce the immune systems of people who may be more at risk, and this, combined with the general strength of the majority of the population, means that few people get severe infections of flu. But flu still kills people every year. A lot of them.

To build this natural herd immunity takes time. Probably generations. So in the interim we can shortcut the process with vaccine. Give enough vaccine to enough people, and infections reduce in numbers and severity. But won't disappear.

The word immunity is perhaps misleading. Unless we are very, very lucky, we won't ever be immune, with or without a vaccine. And certainly not for many generations, barring a miracle or science that doesn't yet exist.

What people are describing as herd immunity isn't herd immunity. That's why they are not understanding.

What do you mean @Moondust001?

Most posters seem to understand the concept correctly.

@Moondust001 Good post.

Some people seem to think we’re going to eliminate the virus completely and need to vaccinate the whole population to do so.

orangenasturtium

I wish there was a like button for your first few posts!! Well out!

I think what moondust is talking about is that most people think of immunity as sterilising immunity which is exceptionally difficult to achieve. is that right Moondust?

Well out = well put

The hope is that the vaccine provides longer immunity than natural infection.

It does sound a bit like painting the Forth bridge - as soon as we’ve got most people injected (huge task) it will be time to start again.

@everythingthelighttouches

orangenasturtium

I wish there was a like button for your first few posts!! Well out!

I think what moondust is talking about is that most people think of immunity as sterilising immunity which is exceptionally difficult to achieve. is that right Moondust?

Yes that is what I meant. When we use immunity in other contexts, people generally mean that something can't happen - so immunity from prosecution obviously means you can't be prosecuted. That's what it usually means, even in medical terms on an individual basis. But herd immunity is a collective term and in this case, as I did say, it is often taken to mean something it doesn't.

@everythingthelighttouches

orangenasturtium

I wish there was a like button for your first few posts!! Well out!

I think what moondust is talking about is that most people think of immunity as sterilising immunity which is exceptionally difficult to achieve. is that right Moondust?

Thank you @everythingthelighttouches! I see what you and Moondust001 mean. I agree, the concept that not all immunity is sterilising immunity is probably new to most people.

Going back to the OP's original post and to inject a bit of positivity into the thread, functional immunity from the vaccine is still great, even if it isn't the holy grail of sterilising immunity. It means people who are infected will likely be less ill than they would have been if they weren't vaccinated. It will probably reduce transmission. No one is saying that it will because no scientist will claim anything without proof and there is no data to show that as yet because only a few people have been vaccinated. However, there is evidence that asymptomatic individuals are less infectious and for a shorter period of time, so that suggests it is probable that it will have an effect on transmission and reduce the effective R number.

OP is correct that will probably need to revaccinate people if have the immunity is waning. We will likely have to develop new vaccines when variants arise.

The polio vaccine doesn't produce sterilising immunity but it has had a huge impact and many countries are polio free. It may even be possible to eradicate polio in the future. Polio is also more infectious that SARS-CoV-2 (it has a higher R0), although it is transmitted largely via the faecal-oral route so it is easier to control with good hygiene. I'm not suggesting that we will be able to eradicate SARS-CoV-2 or that things are going to go back to normal in a few weeks or months but a vaccine that produces functional immunity is really positive and will save lives.

I'm sorry about your friend, OP, but to answer your question, even though the vaccine doesn't give sterilising immunity, neither does wild infection. Letting the virus run wild (which is what I think you mean by going for "herd immunity") is not an option for all the reasons given by PPs.

Thank you all for the positive input, I was really shaken when I found out about my friend yesterday. My friend has cough and temp, time will tell.

Yes, what orangenasturtium said.

Basically we want to achieve herd immunity via vaccination.

Not “naturally” as that kills millions, overwhelms health services causing catastrophic social and economic damage.

This herd immunity will not mean no one will get it any more.

Basically we just need to “take the edge off it”, in layman’s terms.