I know more people who've committed suicide than I do who've died of Covid

[BagsOFr]

4 people (not all friends but people I know from around my area) have now committed suicide, one being the brother of a friend. I know multiple more who've gone missing after a MH crisis and been found thankfully alive.

AIBU to think there HAS to have a massive overhaul of the MH services in this country after this shit show? This can't be allowed to go on silently. I know everyone is very focused on Covid and I appreciate why, but I don't know a single person who's died from Covid and yet here I am, seeing another person who's taken their own life because of this situation. It seems to be such a bigger issue than anyone wants to admit.

@Imaginetoday

I will add that my comment is NOT about priorities for covid. People say lockdown is not working. It is. Statistics show that where lockdown has been done properly infections reduce. Without lockdown are death rates would have continued to exponentially increase and we’d be looking at even more horrifying numbers. Remember that currently 1 person is dying of covid every 2 ish minutes. Mental illness, whilst affecting many people is not responsible for deaths anywhere near that rate. Even in this crisis

The truth is we don't know the lockdown is working in reducing deaths. We do know that the country has been in some form of lockdown for nearly a year yet the virus is still prevalent. Now we just have talk about how the lockdown wasn't tough enough or how people didn't comply enough instead of understanding that these measures don't work. Instead the obvious should be acknowledged - that it's impossible to halt the spread of a virus by locking down a whole population. Never been done in history and certainly never been done now.

Unfortunately the strain on MH services was massive pre-covid, is currently increasing at an alarming rate and will continue to increase long after the physical treatment of covid has ceased to be a major issue in hospitals. The trauma & anxiety alone will need long term provision, also effects of bereavement, loss of jobs etc. Etc. Etc. Mental health services are currently not fit for purpose but that is as a result of lack of investment and no parity of esteem within health services. We need sustained investment, innovation and meaningful governance.

I think the people who seem to enjoy the draconian measures are a big part of the issue. Repeatedly calling for full lockdowns, school closures, now removal of support bubbles and no exercise with a friend...this all creates massive anxiety and it's OK for them to cope with it all but some people just can't. Families with work/honeschool and financial pressures are under great strain, young people's life choices suddenly gone, lonely people on their own. Society just do not appreciate the impact almost a year in lockdown has, that is the issue here in my view. The Government have no choice but to implement measures due to a virus spreading but its how people respond and support one another, it was OK in March, no so much now.

As has been said on numerous occasions we get the government we deserve. The governments we've had the last 11 years pride themselves on not increasing taxes, outsourcing health provision to for profit private companies and implementing austerity. Things aren't going to get better. My local council in the NW has still got 40 million pounds of cuts to impose as a result of reduced central government funding pre covid....things have already been cut to the bone.

BagsOFr Whilst this is true, I think when you see how vicious people are being toward one another right now, it's not surprising that people feel unable to reach out or too scared to.

Then it needs to be stated more clearly - If you suspect that a relative or friend has mental health problems that are putting their health at risk you can see them. If necessary you can travel to see them, visit them in their own house or stay with them to provide care. The lock down laws to not apply in such circumstances. Check gov.uk if you are concerned about the rules but please trust your instincts if you think someone is in danger and check on them.

It's shameful how vicious and self righteous people are putting lives at risk with their lockdown fanaticism.

Pyewhacket you raise an extremely important issue with who wants to train as a MH professional. I have been an in patient and have also done group therapy. I saw someone trying to escape once, four members of staff had to restrain them. Also a woman smashing her head against a wall to try and stop thoughts being held down and all kinds of very upsetting stuff. I don’t think people can understand what sort of strength people have when psychotic nor what they can do. To choose to be around people in extreme distress is pretty damm amazing.

CovoidOfAllHumanity thanks for your work, I endure bipolar and other co morbid MH issues and have received excellent care.

Trying to get people to choose a career in mental health is pretty difficult. Most people do not want my job. Right now I have a black eye where I was punched in the face by a service user. Being assaulted is a common occurrence working on an inpatient mental health ward and sometimes even in the community. I have one colleague who had her arm broken and another who was seriously sexual assaulted. No-one prosecuted for either offence. Verbal abuse (from relatives as well as patients) is a daily occurrence that I don't even notice. You really need a thick skin to tolerate this job. Most people cannot stand inpatient for more than a couple of years.
Not surprising that we are chronically understaffed and have to take whoever applies and train them up.

When people say that crisis teams do not help people who are suicidal what help do you think they should provide? I'm guessing you think they should all be admitted?
It's likely that all the people the crisis team saw that day had suicidal thoughts. Not all can be admitted. Not all would actually benefit from admission. Making the call as to who should and who should not be is, as you can imagine, pretty stressful. When staff get that wrong and someone dies they don't just shrug that off. It is devastating.
Hands up who wants that job? Who wants to spend their whole weekend worrying if they made the right call or feeling respond for someone's death.

Many people with personality disorder have chronic, daily suicidal thoughts and being admitted to hospital would not change that. They require long term psychological therapy that certainly would not be available in an inpatient unit. Most of what is available in an inpatient unit is drugs.
Admission will keep a person safe for a few days but unless they have a condition amenable to drug treatment it will do no more than that.

Oh really, we don't know that lockdown helps reduce case rates and death rates, yet we can plot case and death rates and see them go down every time we lockdown? Coincidence?

Yes the virus continues, because no one really wants long lockdowns so we come out whilst there is still virus in circulation

Have mental health services ever been fit for purpose?
Why is there such a demand for mental health services now? ( am talking in recent years-not just covid related)
Why do we have an epidemic of mental health issues?
Shouldn't we start looking at why so many people have issues? What’s wrong with how we are living? Social media and ‘celeb’ culture contribute IME to significant mental health harm for young people.
Lack of family support? Lack of communities? There seems to be so little focus on prevention. So little regulation of what people are being exposed to online.

It’s an awful statistic, but unfortunately many who commit suicide have never approached their GP or their families for help, so if people don’t seek help, then society can’t help. Quite often people who are suffering mentally cover up their feelings and it’s not found out until after they take their lives just how much they have suffered. Especially men. Men feel that they are supposed to be strong and not being able to cope mentally is a weakness. It’s not always black and white, and problems not always apparent until after their death.

The MH crisis IS being talked about, it is a well known issue. But what can we do? It's societies problem, no amount of complaining about the lack of government support/funding or shit NHS MH services will get it sorted. There will certainly be no massive overhall that magicly saves the MH situation, it's a worldwide issue that no amount of money can change.

The only thing we can do is make sure we're reaching out to friends and make amends with people from the past if it's safe to do so.

@Doublefaced

Have mental health services ever been fit for purpose? Why is there such a demand for mental health services now? ( am talking in recent years-not just covid related) Why do we have an epidemic of mental health issues? Shouldn't we start looking at why so many people have issues? What’s wrong with how we are living? Social media and ‘celeb’ culture contribute IME to significant mental health harm for young people. Lack of family support? Lack of communities? There seems to be so little focus on prevention. So little regulation of what people are being exposed to online.

This is key. Depression and anxiety were endemic in the UK before 2020 with many millions prescribed anti-depressants. Around 6000 die annually from suicide every year in the UK (2020 will be a similar figure).

Lumping Covid in as a catch-all term for mental health or suicide is often used a prop by the anti-lockdown fraternity. I've seen a lot of right wing types who ordinarily wouldn't give a shit about other people's mental health piping up about it with faux concern as it suits their argument.

But the truth is Covid has only added to what was a major problem in the UK. Ultimately the virus is the problem. I remember the days before lockdown in March, anxiety was through the roof in our workplace over catching Covid and because people had to go into a packed office and packed transport every day. There was no avoiding mental health issues as a result of the virus, one way or the other.

I know one person who has died since early last year when covid struck. He died from cancer in the brain and would have died anyway and he received treatment all through lockdown up until he died.

I don't know anyone who has attempted suicide. Not even the friend who made a serious attempt a couple of years ago.

I know someone who nearly died of covid in March. He was on a ventilator for weeks.

My husband has received his usual cancer checkups.

My mum has had a cancerous growth removed from her face.

Not everything is going to pot, although it is being stretched to breaking point.

My mil was seriously mentally ill for 50 years or more. My experience of mental health services are not repeatable. They have been massively underfunded and not fit for purpose for a very long time. That is a scandal, but I think covid has exposed those failings more than anything else.

We obviously need to have a serious look at improving the NHS, but what is the point just now? We need to get covid to be a background issue which isn't stressing our services and then look at what can be done. We are where we are right now and hopefully we can learn from this experience. I just hope that they don't just throw money at the problem and instead look at the bureaucracy and wasted funds that have helped get us here.

@Livelovebehappy

It’s an awful statistic, but unfortunately many who commit suicide have never approached their GP or their families for help, so if people don’t seek help, then society can’t help. Quite often people who are suffering mentally cover up their feelings and it’s not found out until after they take their lives just how much they have suffered. Especially men. Men feel that they are supposed to be strong and not being able to cope mentally is a weakness. It’s not always black and white, and problems not always apparent until after their death.

This is true. But during lockdowns people find it even more difficult to seek help. Being isolated will not only increase mental health problems but lockdowns mean that seeking help from family and friends is (wrongly) considered to be against the law. Seeking professional help is more difficult and even if help is sought it will take longer to access in will likely involve a video call rather than a face to face meeting. Video calls are far from ideal in these circumstances. Also lockdowns mean people are not seen regularly by contacts who may be able to spot danger signals.

The lockdowns are both causing mental health problems and preventing those with mental health problems from being supported. It is a looming disaster...

@Benhew

I think the people who seem to enjoy the draconian measures are a big part of the issue. Repeatedly calling for full lockdowns, school closures, now removal of support bubbles and no exercise with a friend...this all creates massive anxiety and it's OK for them to cope with it all but some people just can't. Families with work/honeschool and financial pressures are under great strain, young people's life choices suddenly gone, lonely people on their own. Society just do not appreciate the impact almost a year in lockdown has, that is the issue here in my view. The Government have no choice but to implement measures due to a virus spreading but its how people respond and support one another, it was OK in March, no so much now.

To be fair, we haven't been locked down much. It was only really the end of March, April and the beginning of May when the roads were quiet. Ever since then the roads have been busy.

June-September was a lot more lax and relatively normal in general. September to December the schools were open and the roads were always busy, so those calling for draconian measures didn't get them.

This month is horrible and grim, but at least we have the vaccines being rolled out quickly and there's light at the end of the tunnel.

I sympathise, Bags — it’s a distressing time, especially when people you know are dying. I know many who are suffering horribly from loneliness and despair. The MH crisis is appalling. The mishandling of the pandemic makes it so much worse than it need have been.

OP you're right and wrong:

Wrong about nobody talking about it. I'm in workplace wellbeing and it's ALL anyone is talking about - and not just internally - with our external partners / suppliers / stakeholders / govt relationships.

Right about the fact that more needs to be done about it as I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the MH 'pandemic' that will follow this one has been underestimated.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity really appreciate what you are doing and sorry that you have experience what you do. Sadly for all the concern at the moment re mental health issues NHS mental health services have always been the Cinderella figure, lacking the same funding and public approval of say crit care where I work.
Funnily enough years ago (31actually ) I wanted to do RMN training insead of general but was dissuaded from it by an acquaintance. We did 8 weeks 'psychy' experience which was certainly eyeopening !There was an opportunity to convert at one point that disappeared with P2000, sad as that may have attracted more recruits.

@Billie18

BagsOFr Whilst this is true, I think when you see how vicious people are being toward one another right now, it's not surprising that people feel unable to reach out or too scared to.

Then it needs to be stated more clearly - If you suspect that a relative or friend has mental health problems that are putting their health at risk you can see them. If necessary you can travel to see them, visit them in their own house or stay with them to provide care. The lock down laws to not apply in such circumstances. Check gov.uk if you are concerned about the rules but please trust your instincts if you think someone is in danger and check on them.

It's shameful how vicious and self righteous people are putting lives at risk with their lockdown fanaticism.

@BagsOFr I completely agree. If I suspected a relative or friend had MH problems I wouldn't be coming on MN to validate (or be flamed for) my decision to go and see them. I would just do it the safest way possible.

People need to care about one another more and not push off responsibility onto 'mental health services'

People need real communities where people look out for one another and care for the vulnerable.

If you really care about reducing suicide then volunteer in your local community. Churches, football clubs and voluntary organisations are some of the main resources we try to get people engaged with in normal times (now there is nothing). If you are involved in such a group then think what you could do to be inclusive. At the school gate talk to someone new who looks lonely.

Our society is so fragmented. Both parents working long hours outside the home plus commuting. People living far away from family. Decline of organised religion. Relationship breakdown. More people living alone.

GPs and counsellors are now seeing people who in the past would have just talked it out with a friend

When people chose a house it's 'location, location, location' but next time I move I'm going to try to make sure I live somewhere (village, inner city doesn't matter) where there is community. Community events, a residents association, playgroups, older people's groups, a thriving PTA at the school. Hard times in my life it's my family and friends who get me through and many of them I met in my local community.

I guess it's the 'Big Society' (although I hate David Cameron with a vengeance) but people need incentives and removal of barriers to do these things. Grants and admin support for community groups and charities, paid time off work to volunteer, tax breaks to companies who allow staff to volunteer.

The Chancellor is desperate to cut the £20/week UC uplift, it is only the less dreadful in his own party holding him back. He was one who was pushing Boris not to close schools wasn't he? I don't get all the love for him.

OP I massively agree with you. The MH service in this country needed rehauling prior to Covid and now it is even worse.

I’m very worried about mental health in young people who have lost so much. About healthcare staff on the frontlines dealing with the ravages of covid day after day and night after night, so much suffering and death that they can’t alleviate or prevent. About the sufferers of long covid whose lives have been reduced to bleak exhaustion and illness, their bodies damaged in so many ways and no way of knowing if or when they will recover. About people already lonely and isolated who have endured so much solitude. About elderly people whose confidence and independence will never recover, whose health has deteriorated from the loss of routine and company and will never come back. About the mothers of young children who have disproportionately lost jobs and income and are at the brink of sanity trying to juggle homeschooling with work and other responsibilities. About people in abusive relationships intensified by the pressures of lockdown. People whose businesses have gone under, whose entire sector faces destruction, whose dreams and careers have been lost. The epidemic of grief for the tens of thousands dead of covid already, along with families grieving relatives who died from other causes be that missed cancer scans or more indirect consequences of the disaster that has befallen us. And there are so many more. And all of this is caused by the virus. The virus necessitated lockdown. The virus has killed people and caused devastation by infection and by the measures that have had to be taken to try to limit the spread and allow our health services to just about survive the onslaught.

There won’t be simple solutions to all of this. The damage still to come will be immense. It will take a huge amount of rebuilding and community effort from everyone. It will need compassionate, thoughtful and humane government - so it won’t happen under Johnson’s leadership. It will require us all to be sympathetic and supportive of each other, for us all to act collectively and take the vaccine, to be responsible and careful for everyone’s sake, to wear masks and wash hands and social distance as long as it’s required, to challenge misinformation and attempts to divide us with blame and recrimination. It will take a lot.

Many people think MH services 'need overhauling'

In what way?
What do you want more of and indeed less of
Please don't say hospital beds. Admission to hospital does not solve anything for the majority of people

More access to therapy I wouldn't quibble with at all but finding the people will be hard. We can't fill the posts we have

Honestly you'd be better off investing in proper social care, housing and education in many ways and resolving the issues that lead to poor MH.
Being a social worker or a housing officer are some of the few jobs I think get more abuse than I do though!

I dont know anyone who had committed suicide. I also work in the community mental health team and we have had no suicides from our patients throughout this period. In fact, our case load is quite slow and some have actually reported an easing of anxiety as they feel less pressure to engage with society (not healthy I know)

Unless your life has been completely turned upside down by covid, e.g losing a business, lost loved ones I don't see how anyone could find this situation worth losing your life for, unless you were already at tipping point. I'm fed up, bored and lonely and have lost all motivation and every day is monotonous..however, I know this isn't for ever, I know I'll be back socialising, going on holidays, feeling spontaneous and having my old life back probably towards the end of the year. I just cant comprehend how losing a few months of normal life is worth giving up life completely. (Apart maybe in the above circumstances- though still suicide shouldn't be the option. Theres always ways out of those situations )