Trigger warning!!! - extremely sad child related. Why nurseries can only close if furlough is guaranteed

[JanewaysBun]

Don't think this is a duplicate thread, sorry if it is!

With nurseries possibly being closed we must ensure that furlough is legally guaranteed to one parent for child staying at home.

The below is really really sad (child accident related), this really stuck a chord with me and has made me feel so sad.

Last summer a 18 mo died after his mother was trying to WFH and provide childcare. In no way blaming this poor woman whom I assume was simply trying to earn money to feed her DC as well as looking after them

Basicslly she was on a long conference call and the child escaped the house and tragically died in a hot tub. This has really resonated with me, children are NOT safe if a parent is attempting to WFH whilst looking after them. Imo should nurseries close, everyone should be legally entitled to furlough if they are the main childcaring parent.

Also imo this should be up to age maybe 7 (mine are 2 and 1 so not sure at what age they can sit still for 2 mins so feel free to correct)
www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/01/baby-drowned-hot-tub-mother-working-home-inquest-hears/amp/

So in short if nurseries need to close which I accept they might we need to provide something In place to keep them safe at home.

Also aware furlough (80%?) Will cause some people to get into financial difficulty so definitely need to have something extra in place for these people.

I will probably resign if I have to "work" whilst with a 2 and 1 yo (DH works 14+ hour days and basically earns all our money so no point making him take some sort of leave as his wage pays the bills!) And most toddlers i know dont sleep enough to allow the parent to work in that time! But aware most people are not in this fortunate position.

Very sad

I dont know.
Having a hot tub /pool/pond is always going to be dangerous if you leave the back door open due to heat. So likely this was possible at many other times. It takes minutes to drown so securing it should have happened. (Not casting blame just a reality of children and water). It could have happened if more than 1 dc when you are home schooling the other one.
We had a pool in the summer and the water was maybe a foot deep and yes the dc could get in by themselves. Though obviously covered at night.
However in general i do agree impossible to wfh - with certain kids anyway. Mine wouldnt be put down when teeting etc and were pretty much a fully time job each till about 3yo. Always trying to get hurt etc. Sawllow and small stuff.

But then you have the ones not working not getting any funded hours... And nursery was generally good for my dc. And realistically they got lots less hours than working parents already 15 for 3 terms compared to maybe 60 for years.
And of course theres the fact everything is shut so its not comparable to a normal sahp situation with groups. Too cold imo for the park.
And depends how long it goes on.

For eg some summer born dc only get 6 terms funded so have had only 2/6 so far. Compared to winter borns who have had 6 already with some missed last year.
But yes this could easily have been a choking or a hot kettle.
Mainly because homes cant be as safe as a nursery (my dc could leap over the safety gate from very young. It stayed there just to slow down.

A much better approach would be to force companies to allow work to be completed 7 days a week and into the evening where ever possible and enforce the maximum working week of 48 hours. Unfortunately everyone has to make sacrifices and in the case of most parents that should include not expecting a traditional weekend and spreading work across 7 days.

I'm already working into the evening and covering weekends. Where can I magic up additional time (and energy ) to balance more??
Public sector so cant be furloughed. Last time in a slightly different role had a 3yr old at home and it was awful for everyone

@makingitupaswegoon

Fucks sake I am going to stop reading these threads. There is so little empathy towards working parents who are expected to WFH and look after babies, toddlers and primary school age kids. So many people have already had furlough, support, essential workers can access childcare but everyone else should just get on with it eh?

I had an hour long phonecall with a professional working from home. In the background, the TV was on - some shite quiz show thing that comes on in the afternoon. I asked her whether she was home-schooling and - no, her son was 15. This lady was totally unprofessional - who the fuck keeps the TV on in the background while on a professional call?

Families with children up to 8 - absolute sympathy.
After that?

If you have two children or more employ a nanny. I think as cost effective as a nursery

hahaha, I work for NMW. How much nanny would I get for my money

That’s just it. I don’t expect parents to WFH and care for babies/young children. I think if there is no childcare available (for whatever reason), the realistic option is that one parent stays home or the sole parent stays home and the household makes do with benefits AS THEY ARE. Or campaign to increase UC for ALL. It’s discriminating against those who were forced out of work due to being unable to afford childcare in first place, those who have been made redundant to date, and all disabled parents who cannot work to begin with. Live on what they live on. Or campaign to increase the base level of benefits for ALL.

This idea that certain parents who due to Covid closed nurseries who are forced to stay home and give up their jobs are a Special case and therefore merit what is essentially benefits (it’s tax payer funded) that are much much higher than what others who had to make the exact same choice live on, is a social injustice. We’d have parents saying “oh I’m leaving my £100k/yr job, so that means I should get £80k/yr in benefits never mind the fact my spouse earns £106k/yr, it will be such a hardship for us to get by...”
meanwhile working class single mums who had no choice but to be a SAHP on benefits because NNW doesn’t cover childcare, they have to scrape by on £20k/yr.

@florencemattell I agree, nannies are a great support. except now my nanny has requested to be put on furlough as she "doesn't feel safe" at work. DC2 and DC5 are unable of playing alone without risk of injury or accident. DH is very recently self employed and will lose his main contract if he reduces his hours. I'm the main breadwinner but I'm looking at taking unpaid leave as we can't cope otherwise. Its just a shit situation for so many working parents

It is a tough situation, but why have a hot tub with toddlers around at all, especially if you open the back door and they have access to it. Why not have the cover on it? I had assumed that her conference call was short and that her baby fell or something. But to have an unguarded/uncovered hot tub, allow access to the garden and leave two 18mth olds unchecked on for two hours is an accident waiting to happen. Having 18mth old twins and balancing work must be an absolute nightmare, but they should still be confined to a safe enclosed area within sight.

Why do nurseries need to close? Where is the evidence?

@PlanDeRaccordement

That makes a lot of sense. I was speaking to a few other mums who agreed if it ever came to it, we would go on benefits like millions of others already do. Essentially as you say, other systems are benefits just higher.

It is hard to think of that when you have a career. It is easy to blame nurseries. Reality is this is a problem that has set women back decades.

@hemhem

That’s awful! I don’t think it’s reasonable for nanny to be furloughed, if she wants to resign she can.

[quote hemhem]@florencemattell I agree, nannies are a great support. except now my nanny has requested to be put on furlough as she "doesn't feel safe" at work. DC2 and DC5 are unable of playing alone without risk of injury or accident. DH is very recently self employed and will lose his main contract if he reduces his hours. I'm the main breadwinner but I'm looking at taking unpaid leave as we can't cope otherwise. Its just a shit situation for so many working parents[/quote]
Wow that’s awful of your nanny. Furlough will cost you money.

[quote hemhem]@florencemattell I agree, nannies are a great support. except now my nanny has requested to be put on furlough as she "doesn't feel safe" at work. DC2 and DC5 are unable of playing alone without risk of injury or accident. DH is very recently self employed and will lose his main contract if he reduces his hours. I'm the main breadwinner but I'm looking at taking unpaid leave as we can't cope otherwise. Its just a shit situation for so many working parents[/quote]
You might not be aware but you still have to pay NI and pension now when staff are furloughed so this isn't going to be "free" for you if you agree to it.

@StatisticalSense out of interest how old are your children?

@PlanDeRaccordement your suggestion is just not practicable. Families with two incomes base their outgoings on two incomes. If my DH or I stop work we will have to sell our house and our cars because we won't be able to pay our mortgage etc. That might be necessary if this was a long term situation but it's not.

What do you think the impact would be on the benefits bill if 50% of all the working parents who currently pay for childcare just stopped working and looked to the state to top up their incomes permanently?

You can think the situation those who rely on benefits are put in is shit and should change but the idea that everyone is either on 6 figures or relying on benefits isn't true. There are loads of middle income workers cobbling things together with childcare etc.

Whilst furlough is possible for child care, a company does not have to agree to it. Let's face it, if a company needs work doing, if the remaining staff in the office are very busy due to the amount of work, why should the company offer furlough?

Surely it will cause bitterness to those flogging their log that their colleague is being paid 80% salary to stay at home. If the business is busy it's not as if the remaining staff, those not on furlough, are concerned about redundancy.

It is reasonable for a firm to offer paid leave for holidays available or unpaid leave once leave has been used up. The person is still retaining their job fir when they can return.

If you cannot work due to your responsibilities at home, and do not take leave, I assume you resign. Your child must be your priority.

Life isn't fair. The government have done a lot with scheme but there's only so far it can go.

Flexible furlough is available and should be used more widely in my view. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

I had an hour long phonecall with a professional working from home. In the background, the TV was on - some shite quiz show thing that comes on in the afternoon. I asked her whether she was home-schooling and - no, her son was 15. This lady was totally unprofessional - who the fuck keeps the TV on in the background while on a professional call?

I doubt that person's son was at school. She wouldn't be "homeschooling" him as 15 year olds need minimal input to be getting on with their work. How do you know he hadn't finished for the day or not been provided with anything for that hour so was sitting in the room watching the TV. Unless you know her precise set up it's unfair to judge.

Re: the hot tub tragedy. It does sound like a tragic chain of events that led to it, not helped by lockdown but not CAUSED by it. As others have said, the exact same circumstances could have happened when the parents weren't working eg if the twins had gone for a nap etc. That's when you need to have things like baby gates, video camera, NOT having the back door open if you have deep water in your back garden, not having the hot tub in the first place if you have young children, or if you do, you ensure 100% of the time that it has a child lock on it.

There have always been terrible tragedies where all those safety precautions are in place, but from pure terrible awful luck, each has failed. Some toddlers have been gymnasts and have climbed over their cot or onto window ledges etc unexpectedly. You don't know what happened. It could be that the toddlers had gone for a nap exactly as they usually did, safe in their room. But maybe one figured out how to climb out of their cot on that particular day, and figured out how to reach the door handle. No stair gate as bedroom was on ground floor.

I'm pretty sure that no parent would leave toddlers alone in the next room for a very long time not able to see or hear them, and with access to the outside from a different room to where the parent themselves were.

What are you on about @PlanDeRaccordement? I have done a lot to help campaign for better disability benefits, it's a matter close to my heart and I feel like it's criminal how little people who have no choice over their situation get. I also feel no one should be struggling, but in honesty I haven't actively campaigned for others so won't claim to have. But I don't see why I should have to give up my career either, and let's be honest, it will be mostly women. I've worked bloody hard to get where I am, as many have, regardless of what job or what salary they bring home; why should we be effectively forced out of the workplace for this? Yes, regrettably it happens often to people when circumstances out of their control happen, but how will adding thousands more to the benefit system and out of employment help? Where will this mythical money come from to raise benefits for all? More chance of that happening with more tax flying around, no?

How about the government and step up to help families in this situation? A Universal Basic Income (which seems to have gotten completely brushed under the carpet since Lockdown 1.0) would be a hell of a start....

If my DH or I stop work we will have to sell our house and our cars because we won't be able to pay our mortgage etc. That might be necessary if this was a long term situation but it's not.

No different from my DB and SIL. SIL was hit by a drunk driver aged 39. Overnight she lost her £126k/yr career. DB was the part time SAHP and worked PT as an estate agent. They had to sell their home and my nieces became young carers aged 11 and 13 at the time because DB had to work full time. Do you think it’s more fair for them? Life isn’t fair and the fact is whether it’s people on middle or higher incomes they have no right to expect to be “topped up” to the lifestyle they are accustomed to because, what? They’re too good to live on benefits like everyone else hit with disaster?

Sorry didn’t mean to offend anyone. Yes nannies are not the cheapest form of childcare but for some parents could be an option. I have the upmost sympathy for any parent trying to work from home with under 5s and or home schooling.

@backbee
Yes, regrettably it happens often to people when circumstances out of their control happen, but how will adding thousands more to the benefit system and out of employment help? Where will this mythical money come from to raise benefits for all? More chance of that happening with more tax flying around, no?

Are you mad? Paying benefits to replace middle and upper incomes at 80% will cost FAR FAR more than just paying the current UC level of benefits to this same number of people.

There are 3m of us who have been forgotten by the government, we have not qualified for any help with income since March. My dh and I run businesses, I work from home with kids, he is out on site. I try to start work after 3pm so I can keep an eye on schoolwork but can’t supervise children all day as then I need to start work, have to leave them in front of screens and hope they don’t have an accident. My stress/anxiety levels are through the roof.

I am very sympathetic as a mother who has her own business but if it is between your job and leaving your 18 month old unattended I am sorry but you cannot weigh up the pros and cons and decide your job is more important.

Exactly this. The article suggests that twin 18mos were left alone for the duration of a two hour conference call, which is a crazy decision however you look at it.

I'm not disagreeing with the point and that case is terrible for the family but anecdata is problematic and regrettably children die in nursery settings too - www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/article/two-year-old-dies-after-choking-on-a-piece-of-sausage-at-nursery

I've not seen relative figures adjusted for hours spent in setting to know whether children are safer in nursery or at home.

@PlanDeRaccordement

That's awful for your DB and SIL but the point remains that this situation is temporary. It's not as though childcare will never be available again. It's nonsense to suggest everyone should sell their houses and leave their jobs because childcare is closed for a few months! I've got a 12 week notice period, by the time I'd served it out the situation will probably be resolved!

I also have a variety of insurance policies to try and minimise the financial impact of death or serious illness (death in service, life insurance, critical illness, income protection).