How many teachers will be handing in the section 44 letter tomorrow and not going in?

[SoscaredforJan]

My DSis is scared to go to work tomorrow in a private primary school in Tier 3 but lowish numbers. She is not ECV but has got chemo damaged lungs so it petrified of catching Covid.

She desperately wants to follow union advice and not go in tomorrow but she’s worried that most teachers will be in as normal, she will have a black Mark against her and will be quietly pushed out.

Are there many teachers on here planning not to go in tomorrow? What do you think will happen tomorrow?

@Confusedlady246

Agree with the comment above RE private sector.

In addition, it's worth mentioning that the parents who will suffer the most from teachers can't be bothered attitude are the single parents on low income. What do you say to the single parent who has to hand their notice in tomorrow because they do not have anywhere to send their child? You know, the child who "you're doing this for". As teachers you should have an understanding of the level of poverty and vulnerability some of your pupils experience. By refusing to work, you are directly exacerbating those issues.

At the end of the day, you simply cannot decide to be the only profession in the country who decides they will not work during the pandemic. The rest of us get on with it because we have to and because we're able to see past the end of our noses.

I'm not sure if there are many studies on the profession narcissists are most likely to have, but I have a good idea where they can start.

We're not refusing to work. We are refusing to teach full classes until basic safety precautions like PPE are in place. Who else has to work without social distancing or PPE?

But also, do you understand what the situation was like in schools last half term? Lots of students having to isolate at the drop of a hat, partial/full closures at very short notice due to lack of staffing, closures for deep cleans, again with very little notice. That was crap for the sort of parents and children you are talking about too.

And it meant provision for the most vulnerable and key workers could not be guaranteed.

At least we are trying to do that.

I do feel that, once closed, they will stay closed until teachers say it’s safe.

One of the problems with this is if teachers don’t agree on what’s safe, don’t trust the government etc. I’ve a friend who teaches drama. She’s no scientist. My husband is an ITU doctor. She frequently debates the issue with him, as considers herself equally qualified to do so.

I hear scientists giving balanced debates, followed by counter arguments from militant teachers who don’t seem to recognise when they confuse the issues.

I think the argument about what’s ‘safe’ began as ‘unsafe because of transmission’ but now vaccines are available, it’s ‘unsafe in case teachers catch covid’ which is a different argument altogether. Suspect the unions want their members prioritised for vaccines along with nhs staff. Reminds me of the scene in Titanic where there aren’t enough lifeboats and people start pushing.

Once vaccinated, are teachers going to say it’s unsafe because of transmission again?

@SeldomFollowedIt

Lol *@Confusedlady246* ever heard of narcissistic projection? Your posts highlight that, a lot.

No one of my posts comes across as even slightly narcissistic at least you've moved on from commenting on my username I suppose.

I support the teachers in not going to work tomorrow but just out of interest does anyone know if doctors and nurses are allowed to submit a section 44 letter? If they are then I how can the government justify not giving them a substantial payrise when they were working without adequate PPE in lockdown 1.

It all looks good but how many students can you fit in a classroom with 1m between each other? It might only be KW etc?

@Confusedlady246

I'm not saying they are safe, but that is the issue, nowhere is safe at the moment. Do you suggest we close schools, hospitals, send police officers home, tell firemen to stay off and just sit inside? Until when? When do we stop? We have to get on with it and think about the nation as a whole.

Why is no-one replying to the issues around poverty and vulnerability I've addressed? Chances are, at least one parent of your classroom will lose their job because of your decision to not do your job properly. I couldn't carry that guilt myself, but it seems people here are relishing in it. What about the deprived children who do not have access to the internet? Or laptop? Do they just not have an education until teachers feel like they've had enough time off? Another year maybe? Or two? What implications will that have on the child? It's so upsetting.

I did. Fancy responding? I do really, really care about those children and will be actively chasing up any non-attenders or anyone who I am concerned about, and reaching out to parents because issues did arise during the last lock down.

And schools are the only place I know of where 30 people can get together with no social distancing. And they are the most commonly reported place that people have been in the 4 days before testing positive Therefore they appear to be the most dangerous places open currently. Though I'll admit again that this isn't certain.

Confusedlady246

What teachers are saying is that schools should be made as safe as possible. As there quite a few things that could be done. (even if the government has blocked them)

Are you really against this?

@Confusedlady246

I'm not saying they are safe, but that is the issue, nowhere is safe at the moment. Do you suggest we close schools, hospitals, send police officers home, tell firemen to stay off and just sit inside? Until when? When do we stop? We have to get on with it and think about the nation as a whole.

Why is no-one replying to the issues around poverty and vulnerability I've addressed? Chances are, at least one parent of your classroom will lose their job because of your decision to not do your job properly. I couldn't carry that guilt myself, but it seems people here are relishing in it. What about the deprived children who do not have access to the internet? Or laptop? Do they just not have an education until teachers feel like they've had enough time off? Another year maybe? Or two? What implications will that have on the child? It's so upsetting.

It. Is. Not. Time. Off.

@Fr0thandBubble

Stupid statistic. You're OK with people with asthma dying? People who are obese (I recently realised that I just am. I also run half marathons)? People who are 60 (who aren't eligible for pension and might still be your child's teacher)? People with curable cancers with 99% survival rates?

Hold on, why should children's education be destroyed because you are obese? Take some responsibility for yourself! This really offends me - shouting that children's education should be sacrificed and parents' jobs jeopardised for your protection, when you can't even be bothered to protect yourself.

No. But I fucking hate people accepting that people's deaths don't matter if they have an underlying condition.

What part of "If you can work from home, work from home" do we not understand?

Teachers work from home : result, poor educational outcomes for a period of a few weeks.

Refuse collectors work from home: result cholera
Food productions workers work from home: result starvation

Honestly, we're important, but we're really not immediately vital in the short term.

@Confusedlady246

I'm not saying they are safe, but that is the issue, nowhere is safe at the moment. Do you suggest we close schools, hospitals, send police officers home, tell firemen to stay off and just sit inside? Until when? When do we stop? We have to get on with it and think about the nation as a whole.

Why is no-one replying to the issues around poverty and vulnerability I've addressed? Chances are, at least one parent of your classroom will lose their job because of your decision to not do your job properly. I couldn't carry that guilt myself, but it seems people here are relishing in it. What about the deprived children who do not have access to the internet? Or laptop? Do they just not have an education until teachers feel like they've had enough time off? Another year maybe? Or two? What implications will that have on the child? It's so upsetting.

Yes, it's extremely upsetting that the government refused to listen to all advice and guidance or take into account good practice in other countries and basically set schools up to be a breeding ground for the virus, including the new variant.

I agree. It's heart-breaking.

@TwentyTwentyOne

Can anyone show me some statistics on how many teachers have been infected, hospitalised and unfortunately passed away as a result of catching COVID at school?

I'm sure if I saw some solid facts I'd have a lot more sympathy for the cause.

So 50,000 people tested positive today. So, those people are in days 3-5 of infection? So, not many of them are teachers because they e been off 2-3 weeks. Where is the evidence that teachers are coming down with Coronavirus is swathes?

If the evidence was in front of you and you tripped over it?

[quote RoseTintedAtuin]@Confusedlady246 teachers can provide distance learning (among other suggestions such as rotas)... entire degrees with complex information have been taught in this way. They are not refusing to work.[/quote]
Children learn in a very different way to adults

newusername2009

RTFT

I’ve handed mine in as a secondary teacher who was being forced to come in for remote inset and teaching.

teachers can provide distance learning (among other suggestions such as rotas)... entire degrees with complex information have been taught in this way

Yes, an 18-22 year old who has the maturity to get good A'level results and invest in a degree or a mature student like me who does online learning is really comparable with teaching 30, 9 year olds via an iPad or posting them some worksheets to do independently and follow a rota.

I know plenty of parents who have to sit in from 0830-1530 every day and take leave to make sure their DC is doing the work. I've listened in on lessons of well behaved students in a class of 18 and it's still impossible. Nothing gets done. Do all of your students even have a device to log into? Why do you think GCSE's are being scrapped or watered down? It's because remote learning is ineffective with kids.

But you keep talking yourself into a teachers strike being an act of altruism for the general public.

@CountessFrog

I do feel that, once closed, they will stay closed until teachers say it’s safe.

One of the problems with this is if teachers don’t agree on what’s safe, don’t trust the government etc. I’ve a friend who teaches drama. She’s no scientist. My husband is an ITU doctor. She frequently debates the issue with him, as considers herself equally qualified to do so.

I hear scientists giving balanced debates, followed by counter arguments from militant teachers who don’t seem to recognise when they confuse the issues.

I think the argument about what’s ‘safe’ began as ‘unsafe because of transmission’ but now vaccines are available, it’s ‘unsafe in case teachers catch covid’ which is a different argument altogether. Suspect the unions want their members prioritised for vaccines along with nhs staff. Reminds me of the scene in Titanic where there aren’t enough lifeboats and people start pushing.

Once vaccinated, are teachers going to say it’s unsafe because of transmission again?

Which scientists are currently saying it is safe to open schools as normal?

SAGE, the School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and Imperial are all calling for schools to be closed for a brief period to gather data on the new strain.

That's part of why NEU have taken the action they have.

[quote MarieG10]@ilovesooty

What do you suggest...go on strike in protest?*
I hope they will face legal action. What you say is going to happen is illegal.*

Do you have a reference for that? the member would have prove in court that the refusal to work under section 44 was justified and therefore they were not on strike or unauthorised leave.

Frankly it is easy for militant trade union leaders to belch out this sort of stuff [/quote]
What they would have to argue is that there were circumstances of danger which they believed was serious and imminent and which they could not avert. Given the rate of rising numbers I don’t see that’s that difficult. Plus they are doing it on advice of their Union who I would imagine have taken legal advice. Failing to pay them would arguably amount to a detriment under s44. They are not refusing to work. They are refusing to attend an unsafe workplace.

Agree @tryingtokeepgoing. I dread to think how many other key sectors like prison workers who are in the same position. I suspect there are other areas too where there is little protection and we will see an influx of resignations over the next few months putting greater pressure on the services.

@TwentyTwentyOne

teachers can provide distance learning (among other suggestions such as rotas)... entire degrees with complex information have been taught in this way

Yes, an 18-22 year old who has the maturity to get good A'level results and invest in a degree or a mature student like me who does online learning is really comparable with teaching 30, 9 year olds via an iPad or posting them some worksheets to do independently and follow a rota.

I know plenty of parents who have to sit in from 0830-1530 every day and take leave to make sure their DC is doing the work. I've listened in on lessons of well behaved students in a class of 18 and it's still impossible. Nothing gets done. Do all of your students even have a device to log into? Why do you think GCSE's are being scrapped or watered down? It's because remote learning is ineffective with kids.

But you keep talking yourself into a teachers strike being an act of altruism for the general public.

This is a point I’ve made before. If remote learning is so successful, why have the government dumbed down GCSEs? Surely it wouldn’t be necessary, as the kids have all been provided top class remote education, which is apparently an adequate substitute.

@MarshaBradyo

It all looks good but how many students can you fit in a classroom with 1m between each other? It might only be KW etc?

As a secondary school, we only have about 20-30 key worker/vulnerable students in on any given day.

We could fit about 12 students in a classroom last summer with 2m social distancing, so with 1m, I'd suggest we could fit half a class in the room.

So realistically it would be a rota and blended learning, with half the students in at any one time.

Honestly, if we got everything else on the list, and SAGE etc said it was ok for schools to reopen, I would be happy to go back to work. I'm not sure what the NEU's stance would be.

Madame it’s true the Unions will have taken legal advice. And the government too. Tomorrow there’s a hearing. I wonder how much they are working on it right now.

This is a point I’ve made before.
If remote learning is so successful, why have the government dumbed down GCSEs? Surely it wouldn’t be necessary, as the kids have all been provided top class remote education, which is apparently an adequate substitute.

Have you seen the minimal changes that have actually been made to GCSEs?

The only change in my subject (science) is that students can watch a video or simulation of a required practical, rather than carrying out themselves. With the best will in the world, I can't deliver practical science remotely.

Everything else is the same, however. No content has been removed.

@Bagamoyo1 yes they do. And distance learning and support can be tailored to assist their learning. There is a subset of children who thrived during lockdown as remote learning better suited their learning style.