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'Mass testing' in secondary schools

80 replies

cantkeepawayforever · 02/01/2021 11:45

The Government has been very poor in spelling out what 'mass testing' in secondary schools means, and the mainstream media has not been clarifying the issue. I am repeatedly seeing misconceptions on MN based on this poor messaging.

The guidance released (obviously dates will now change to an extent) is here:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/947799/schools_and_colleges_testing_handbook.pdf

Leaving aside arguments about practicality (it is interesting that they have removed an earlier version of the guidance in terms of numbers of people required, but even this version says that a secondary school of 1000 will need 13 members of staff to administer testing), let us think about the TWO SEPARATE types of testing and whether they make schools and their communities safer or less safe.

The initial testing is of two separate tests 3-5 days apart (a total of 6.8 million tests would be needed for this phase). This would, if done successfully, improve the safety of schools temporarily, by identifying some cases that would not otherwise have been detected, and requiring them to isolate.

Of course, within a short time, as students go about their daily lives and potentially pick up infections but are not tested again, this marginal improvement in safety is not maintained.

The second test of testing is not, as a rational person might assume, an ongoing randomised testing programme that could pick up outbreaks within schools quickly and remove infected individuals from circulation.

Instead, it replaces the current isolation of close contacts of someone who tests positive with 'serial testing' over a period of 7 days (in effect, 5 tests, due to weekends). Again on a note of practicality, given the number of students isolating as close contacts towards the end of term, this will need between 2.5 million and 3.5 million tests per week, almost certainly significantly higher given the new variant.

On a much more important point, this is MUCH more dangerous in terms of spread of the virus in and via schools, given the high false negative rate found for LFTs. In effect, someone who has sat for an hour, maskless, sharing a desk with a positive case will continue to circulate freely in the school context (despite the fact that contact of a quarter this length, even with a mask, would lead to isolation for 10 days if it had happened outside school).

Even if they have been infected and would test positive using a PCR test, there is only a 50% likelihood (at a conservative estimate) that their first LFT will pick up their infection. There is only a 25% change that they will be picked up on the second day. Even after 5 tests, there is a 3% possibility that a positive case will have tested negative every single time.

But this infected student - who under current protocols would not have been in school for 10 days after contact with a confirmed positive, thus breaking the in-school chain of transmission - instead remains in school, creating their own chain of close contacts and potential infections, for days.

So be careful when you say 'oh, secondary schools will have mass testing, so they will be safer'. No, they will not. Initial mass testing will make them (very briefly) safer. Replacing isolation with repeated lateral flow tests will make them MUCH more dangerous in terms of viral spread.

OP posts:
SansaSnark · 02/01/2021 11:46

FWIW, when our head emailed regarding the changes to school opening, he said he "hoped all staff would be able to access a test next week" but he's yet to have confirmation of when and how many tests will be delivered.

So I think it's safe to assume that most schools won't get the necessary numbers of tests to carry this out.

It's going to be another Tory cock up.

cantkeepawayforever · 02/01/2021 11:50

Sansa, I completely agree that the PRACTICALITY is also another epic cock up.

However, what really worries me is the PRINCIPLE - that something is being touted as 'making schools safer' (a line that many parents are buying) demonstrably makes schools less safe.

OP posts:
moominmomma1234 · 02/01/2021 11:55

It’s totally nuts that kids can carry on coming into school after close contact instead of isolating . Its bonkers !

Littlewhitedove2 · 02/01/2021 11:57

@moominmomma1234

It’s totally nuts that kids can carry on coming into school after close contact instead of isolating . Its bonkers !
But if they are a close contact they will be tested every day for 7 days in order to be allowed back!
walksen · 02/01/2021 11:58

This is not a new attitude from the government.

When attendance figures dropped, the year group bubbles idea was dropped and schools told to do their own contact tracing. Result more cases in schools more infections of staff etc.

The lateral flow test will also allow the government to brag over higher attendance at school while pupils their families and school staff suffer more infections etc.

Meanwhile the govt will claim schools are still safe and blame the high prevalence amongst school aged kids on out of school mixing.

Pastanred · 02/01/2021 11:58

Its going to be the long term plan for all not just schools - liverpool was going to trial it to prevent isolation from workplaces (guessing their moved to school instead but its plan for us all eventually and im glad)

Its used now in sport and entertainment industry to prevent isolation

moominmomma1234 · 02/01/2021 11:59

They will be tested everyday while at school and wait for the results before being told wether its positive or not. If its positive then parents need to come and pick them up. And the lateral flow test are not very reliable in asymptotics. That’s my understanding, maybe I have it wrong?

walksen · 02/01/2021 11:59

"Its used now in sport and entertainment industry to prevent isolation. "

Sport etc have used the more accurate PCR tests though...

Abraxan · 02/01/2021 12:00

But if they are a close contact they will be tested every day for 7 days in order to be allowed back!

With a test that we know isn't overly reliable when it comes to false negatives. Something like 40-50% of positive tests may slip through undetected. Yes, if done daily, chances are they will pick them up eventually - but after 2 or 3 days, well that's a lot of other people being exposed in the mean time isn't it?

I agree with testing in schools.
But they should be used as an additional level of protection in an environment where the normal protection (social distancing, masks, etc) cannot be fully applied. They should not be used to bypass the normal 'rules' of self isolation, but as well as.

Panickingpavlova · 02/01/2021 12:00

Past students are very different to adults.

Noellodee · 02/01/2021 12:02

Do we think students will maintain 2m distance in masks whilst they wait for those two preliminary tests?

Abraxan · 02/01/2021 12:02

Its used now in sport and entertainment industry to prevent isolation

From what I have read, in most cases they are using the more reliable pcr tests and.or a combination of both.

They also aren't then ignoring the self isolation of close contacts rule. If someone tests positive then all close contacts still have to isolate, unlike the plans for secondary schools.

moominmomma1234 · 02/01/2021 12:03

And will the kids stick the swab far enough up their noses? I presume they will be doing it on themselves

meditrina · 02/01/2021 12:04

Mass testing - great - picks up asymptomatic/presymptomatic cases that would otherwise have been undetected. Even if tests not terribly reliable, this is a good step forwards

Testing instead of SI - utter disaster

moominmomma1234 · 02/01/2021 12:05

@meditrina

Mass testing - great - picks up asymptomatic/presymptomatic cases that would otherwise have been undetected. Even if tests not terribly reliable, this is a good step forwards

Testing instead of SI - utter disaster

Yes i get that bit but its the no need to self isolate that really worries me
cantkeepawayforever · 02/01/2021 12:08

They also aren't then ignoring the self isolation of close contacts rule. If someone tests positive then all close contacts still have to isolate, unlike the plans for secondary schools.

This is the nub of the issue.

Elsewhere, regular [usually reliable PCR] testing is used to pick up cases which would not otherwise be detected, and contacts are then asked to isolate. That is the same format as the initial mass testing in schools, which as I have said, improves safety, at least for the days on which those tests take place.

In schools, unreliable testing - that fails to identify at least 50% of positive cases, and up to 97% in one trial using students - will be used for known close contacts instead of isolation. That's where the danger lies.

OP posts:
SansaSnark · 02/01/2021 12:10

But if they are a close contact they will be tested every day for 7 days in order to be allowed back!

But the testing is only about 50% accurate when done by a non- HCP.

And the testing will be carried out in school. So if you kid gets a bus to school, they could be sitting with a positive case each morning, and you wouldn't know until that child was tested.

I know this could be the case anyway, but it's far more likely with all close contacts coming into school.

It feels like a recipe for massive outbreaks- assuming it will actually happen at all.

EndoplasmicReticulum · 02/01/2021 12:11

I don't think any other sector is using the lateral flow tests instead of isolation.

Completely agree OP - and the message is not clear from schools or in the media.

Yes, the practicalities of testing millions of teenagers at short notice with no staff or money is obviously a problem.

But that's not the major issue here. The test instead of isolate plan is clearly going to make it more dangerous in secondary schools, not less, and lead to greater spread of the virus.

notevenat20 · 02/01/2021 12:11

The main advantage is catching pupils who have no symptoms. At the moment we catch none of those. If we only catch 50% that will be a huge improvement.

Noellodee · 02/01/2021 12:12

The danger also lies in taking this inherently foolish course of action at a time when we have two emerging variants of the strain which are known to be much more easily transmitted and about which we have limited information of how they affect school age children.

IFeelAMalenkyBitPoogly · 02/01/2021 12:12

It's the testing instead of self isolation which is not being well publicised at all.

Plus these are being self administered at school possibly when the DC have used public transport to get there Hmm Plus they are much less reliable tests in terms of accuracy.

Twenty two billion pounds has been thrown at our "world beating" test and trace service and this is what they have come up with. I hate to use the "taxpayers money" cliche but it's true.

This new "plan" is increasing risk not decreasing it. If it is such a wonderful idea, why isn't it replacing self isolation for everyone? My DS has tested positive but I'm going to get the bus and tube to work and do a LF test on myself every morning to see if I can stay at my desk. It'll be fine. I work in a room with 30 other people and we don't wear masks or PPE, but if I'm positive I'll just get the tube home and everyone else can still come into work and test themselves for a week. It'll be fine!

Well fuck that shit. And I'm not a teacher! I have skin in the game of being CEV/shielded but this is putting everyone at increased risk - students, their families, staff, the general public.

It's fucking disgraceful.

cantkeepawayforever · 02/01/2021 12:12

I would completely support professionally organised randomised mass testing in schools for non close contacts, accompanied by the continued use of isolation for close contacts.

So for example, I would support a model in which, when a positive case was identified, all those who are close contacts - within 2m [or perhaps 3m for new variant] for 15+ minutes inside or within 1m face to face for any period - isolate as they do currently. PLUS, as added protection, rapid testing of all who did not meet this definition but could have come into contact - the remainder of every class that student had been in, students who sat a bit further away in the canteen or whose contact with the student was outside.

That would IMPROVE safety. Removing isolation and replacing it with unreliable testing is what reduces safety and increases the risk of transmission.

OP posts:
notevenat20 · 02/01/2021 12:13

I don't think any other sector is using the lateral flow tests instead of isolation.

The French system is not to send anyone else home if there is a positive case but to make all pupils wear masks. I think our proposed system is better and safer.

Abraxan · 02/01/2021 12:14

@notevenat20

The main advantage is catching pupils who have no symptoms. At the moment we catch none of those. If we only catch 50% that will be a huge improvement.
I am not sure it is a better solution if we then still ignore the close contacts of those positive cases and still have them wandering about school, using public transport and mixing with others inside and outside of school.
moominmomma1234 · 02/01/2021 12:14

Let’s hope they u turn on there test instead of isolate plan . I think they will. It might be worth considering in a few months when levels are lower