Officials in Britain “seem to have abandoned science completely now and are just trying to guess their way out of a mess.”

[Eastie77]

Such a shit-show. A mix and match of vaccines with no data driven evidence that this approach even works? Meanwhile the increased gap between the two jabs surely means a lot of people will get the first but not the second (most important) one. As the article points out, this chaotic roll out is just going to diminish trust in the vaccinations full stop

www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/health/coronavirus-vaccines-britain.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

So, you get the Pfizer one first, and if it then isn’t available, you get the Oxford one instead as your second jab?
If that works, great - but why have we come up with these plans that everyone else seems to think are a bit mad and without any evidence?? They are going to put people off the vaccine if they’re not careful.

I sincerely hope that is one of those stupid ideas an idiot "floats" before being shut down

Pretty fair assessment.

I’m probably being uncharitable but given that the vaccine provides the best roadmap out of this farce, I don’t feel that there’s a huge national effort to get it out to as many people as possible as a matter of urgency. However, I accept I’m not privy to everything that goes on behind the scenes and such a massive logistical exercise takes time.

But we certainly can't risk wasting what we have

"If a second dose of the vaccine a patient originally received isn’t available, or if the manufacturer of the first shot isn’t known, another vaccine may be substituted, health officials said."

^ taken from the article.. but what does it mean if the manufacturer of the first shot isn't known?? Surely they will keep a record what exactly was given at the time of the first one ?

Bloody hell.

We've got a vaccine.

Some people can't even use the New Year as a chance to try a bit more optimism.

@BrickFireplace

Pretty fair assessment.

I’m probably being uncharitable but given that the vaccine provides the best roadmap out of this farce, I don’t feel that there’s a huge national effort to get it out to as many people as possible as a matter of urgency. However, I accept I’m not privy to everything that goes on behind the scenes and such a massive logistical exercise takes time.

Given that the UK was the first to approve the vaccine and is rolling out far ahead of many others including Germany, I don't think criticism of speed is entire fair, especially when there are constraints on global production.

Criticism of the delayed second vaccinations on the other hand is pretty reasonable, I can see their reasoning for it given the current crisis but it seems like really short term thinking.

but what does it mean if the manufacturer of the first shot isn't known?? Surely they will keep a record what exactly was given at the time of the first one

It means they don't rule out record keeping cock ups, which is always prudent on the general grounds that any system used by humans can be subject to error.

I'm assuming that if you have to switch between type of jab, you will need two shots of the second one? There really isn't any data at all to suggest that the different types reinforce each other.

My concern is that this policy will look nice and dandy in the first 12 weeks when lots of people will get their first shots (might even reach category 4 if we can do 1m a week)

But what happens then is that those 12 million all need their second shots. Who is going to give first shots whilst that is going on? Or is there a Cunning Plan to build more capacity and activate it at the 12 week point?

I'm assuming that if you have to switch between type of jab, you will need two shots of the second one? There really isn't any data at all to suggest that the different types reinforce each other.

I've taken it to mean that they're just hoping the two different ones would work together despite no evidence. It seems even with the Pfizer they are going for 12 weeks between jabs despite there being no data or evidence to suggest it works after 21 days so wouldn't surprise me.

Given that the UK was the first to approve the vaccine and is rolling out far ahead of many others including Germany,

I think the point is that because they approved it so quickly (some other countries suggested too quickly) that they tried to roll out the vaccination programme without the appropriate planning or infrastructure in place, so now we are in this mess.

The cynic in me thinks that part of the reason was so the UK government could put out that photo of the first person in the world to be vaccinated.

@Meredithgrey1

So, you get the Pfizer one first, and if it then isn’t available, you get the Oxford one instead as your second jab? If that works, great - but why have we come up with these plans that everyone else seems to think are a bit mad and without any evidence?? They are going to put people off the vaccine if they’re not careful.

Because they're absolutely desperate.

Most countries are taking their time over the vaccines.

I think if you already had phizzer then you should be given 2nd dose in original time frame the manufacturers stipulate and trialled.

With Oxford maybe space those out.

But the big elephants in the room are

The trials were based on a shorter time frame between the 2 vaccinations.
Also the new variant thrown into the mix. The latest news screams panic

New varient
Overwhelmed nhs
Increasing cases and deaths

Leading to these panic driven decisions the 4 chief medical officers agree with I don't think many doctors do

It will also undermine publics confidence and trust in the vaccination schedule and may lead to lower takeup.

Not to mention high cost of phizer if they screw it up and its less effective than that's money and time wasted.

We need 70 to 80% immunisations to have herd immunity.
We seem a long way off that despite being the 1st.

Yes, we are at crisis point.

I suppose for NHS capacity, 100 people having 52%/90% coverage is better than 50 people having 95% coverage and 50 people having none.

@Eastie77

You've opened 3 government bashing threads today already.

What is your agenda?

I really hope that’s not the plan.
I’m a vet so deal with vaccines a lot, we go by the manufacturers guidelines , if we don’t we could get in serious trouble because the guidelines are how it’s been tested and proven to work.
If I don’t get a second vaccine done within the time frame allowed, we have to start again. No way would we cross our fingers and hope for the best , which is what seems to be happening here.
These two vaccines don’t work in remotely the same way , there’s no way that they should be mixed.
Have had a lot of sympathy for the government in some ways, so much of this has been unpredictable but this is bat shit crazy. We should have had vaccinators and vaccine stations ready to go and had vaccines sitting in fridges at them as soon as approval was looking likely. No excuse for weeks being wasted.

@Cecillie

I really hope that’s not the plan. I’m a vet so deal with vaccines a lot, we go by the manufacturers guidelines , if we don’t we could get in serious trouble because the guidelines are how it’s been tested and proven to work. If I don’t get a second vaccine done within the time frame allowed, we have to start again. No way would we cross our fingers and hope for the best , which is what seems to be happening here. These two vaccines don’t work in remotely the same way , there’s no way that they should be mixed. Have had a lot of sympathy for the government in some ways, so much of this has been unpredictable but this is bat shit crazy. We should have had vaccinators and vaccine stations ready to go and had vaccines sitting in fridges at them as soon as approval was looking likely. No excuse for weeks being wasted.

You know I thought this when puppy had vaccination schedule. We also quarantined him before he had both and waited few days walk him. Seems weird we take better care and caution with our pets than people. They honestly don't know if waiting longer effects how effective it is or if new varient maybe different they just guessing and hoping for the best.

I'm not scientific at all.
My understanding is phizer/moderna are very different type vaccine to Oxford sure the end result hopefully same but the type of vaccine is different hence different storage conditions.

@trulydelicious I think you've confused me with another poster? I haven't opened any other threads today, let alone "government bashing" ones

That’s poor reporting. The guidance they’re talking about says that every effort should be made to give people a second dose that matches their first dose, but if the type if vaccine used for the first dose isn’t known, give them what’s available. It does not say “oh whatever, mix and match.”

@Cecillie that is extremely worrying, I did not realise the two vacccines work in completely different ways. The guidance seems to be they both target the same thing (spike protein of the virus) so assumed they worked in similar ways. I have zero scientific/medical knowledge as you can probably tell!

If Scientists do not know what the impact is of mixing vaccines is then they really are basically playing with people's lives. This is insane.

And yes, what do they mean "if the first product received is unknown"? They must keep records when they administer the first jab? Or does this mean if someone rocks up and says they had the first vaccine (somewhere else) but can't remember what it was, Doctors will take their word for it and just give a second dose?

Bloody hell!

Yet another thread to celebrate the idiocy!

This is happening in real time. Armchair expertise is never going to approximate the knowledge of any of the many experts working on this; nothing you are likely to think of will be overlooked, in fact much of what is posted as some sort of Gotcha! is Science 101.

Such insistence on looking for 'the catch' is tiresome enough to read. I can't imagine what it must be like to think like that!

Curious the opinions in the article are from vaccine experts and scientists. They are very concerned about this unproven strategy. I haven't 'thought of' anything from my armchair. I'm reading the assessment of actual experts and mentioning them here. I'm not claiming to be a medical expert who has uncovered anything myself.

But since you mention it, I do think it is entirely possible that some things have been overlooked or brushed aside in the haste to roll out this vaccine. I'm glad you have such unwavering faith in the competency of the government here though.

Stupid scare mongering again.

@Eastie77

Apologies. I've indeed mistaken you for another poster with a very similar name

It does convince you that this current government couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery, and whatever they get involved with, however good the intentions and obvious the way forward, inevitably turns into a last minute confused muddle in which nothing is done properly and a whole lot of unforseen (by them) issues end up making things worse.

I have been very keen and willing to have the vaccine. However that view is starting to change, as just randomly experimenting with time limits and mixing vaccines has the potential not only to waste ridiculous time and money handing out one dose which turns out to achieve very little in protecting people and dropping infection rates, but also runs the risk of creating the kind of syndromes and side effects seen before when vaccines are mixed in the name of expediency.

@MichelleofzeResistance

It does convince you that this current government couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery, and whatever they get involved with, however good the intentions and obvious the way forward, inevitably turns into a last minute confused muddle in which nothing is done properly and a whole lot of unforseen (by them) issues end up making things worse.

I have been very keen and willing to have the vaccine. However that view is starting to change, as just randomly experimenting with time limits and mixing vaccines has the potential not only to waste ridiculous time and money handing out one dose which turns out to achieve very little in protecting people and dropping infection rates, but also runs the risk of creating the kind of syndromes and side effects seen before when vaccines are mixed in the name of expediency.

That's interesting. Can you explain the syndromes and side-effects when seen before when vaccines are mixed?