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Covid

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If you are a HCP working with covid do you think anything of patients who have broken the rules

54 replies

Napqueen1234 · 01/01/2021 10:28

I am a HCP professional myself but haven’t worked front line for a long time. It looks horrendous and I want to say thank you for working in these awful conditions. I watched the video of Dr Hugh Montgomery begging people to follow the rules which I completely agree with.

What I am wondering is how do you feel as HCP if you are caring for people who you know have not followed the guidelines and since caught covid and become very unwell? I know generally we do not judge and treat every patient our best (eg smokers with lung cancer, obese people with related problems). But I found it interesting that it’s painted that people very ill or dying of covid are ‘victims’ with the rest of society causing their covid due to their lack of rule following. Presumably though a certain amount of people may have got covid due to not following guidance themselves. I know of course a lot of people get it through work/shopping even when following all the ‘rules’ so I do understand it’s not everyone. I don’t know many people who have died of covid however the two I know have been grandparents of families who met up regularly even during lockdown, had small parties etc. I’m not saying at all that they deserved to die at all of course but what I mean is when they became ill and died their families were shocked, devastated etc. But surely they knew their behaviour was putting their own relatives at risk?

I follow the rules myself but also haven’t ‘dobbed in’ neighbours for minor infractions. I just find this attitude of all the selfish people causing people to die of covid through no fault of their own quite strange.

OP posts:
MadameBlobby · 01/01/2021 11:26

@confuseddotcom090

Covid is like glitter. It's been sprinkled around and now it's everywhere. You'll find it it in places uou could swear it shouldn't be. Trying to attach and apportion blame is fruitless and pointless and unkind. Having a moral hierarchy of what is deemed necessary or essential interaction with the outside world is divisive and dangerous

Agreed. People never got blamed in the past for catching a virus, or indeed giving it to someone else unless it was extremely reckless/negligent (eg knowingly having HIV and unprotected sex)

I can remember a little boy sneezing on my sisters birthday cake and giving everyone mumps. Did he and his mother become pariahs? No they did not. But mumps can have nasty long term consequences.

If you want to throw blame around, why not throw it at the overweight? diabetes sucks up a huge proportion of the healthcare budget and we have all known for 9 months that being overweight increases the risk of COVID complications. Plenty of time for people to lose weight, yet they haven't. Maybe make that a COVID rule? Everyone with a BMI over 25 to have a 500 calorie deficit a day. Just as sensible and easy to enforce as all the other bullshit they come out with, but at least there is a scientific basis to it.

Oh the overweight have had plenty of blame bandied around throughout all of this, you can’t have missed it? Especially on MN.
Legoteacups · 01/01/2021 11:28

Erm no bluntness. Some of us are catching it in our workplaces.
Next week I will go back to school where 1/4 of the staff have already had it - caught from school as if was found in a student and then spread - and I will probably catch it also.

SecretSpAD · 01/01/2021 11:28

I'm a doctor working in public health. Over the last 30 years I've worked with lots of people who people on here would judge as abusing their health. In all cases there were complex reasons.

The blame for how this virus has impacted our society is the fault of the govt - the delays locking down, the waste of money that was track and trace, the consistency of poor decision making, the lack of financial help for a lot of people which meant they had to take risks I order to keep working and earn money. Now the debacle over schools - which need to close for a while.

The bigger problems of the austerity years and the chronic underfunding of the public sector.

But it is easier for them and for many people on here to blame individuals.

No we can't blame patients for catching an infection that it so prevalent in our communities. The NHS is not a charity - it is free at the point of delivery, but we all pay for it through our taxes and so are entitled to use it.

CopperheadRoad · 01/01/2021 11:34

I’m a HCP and though I’ve not been on the frontline during the pandemic due to pregnancy and mat leave, judgement is just not something you do when treating patients.

I also caught covid whilst remaining fully within the rules and having contact with nobody outside my household. If I felt I was being judged by an HCP involved in my care had I been unwell enough to warrant hospital admission, I’d be pretty pissed tbh.

newyeary · 01/01/2021 11:38

If we judged everyone who uses the NHS for reasons that could have been mitigated, we'd never get anything done.

Most of the covid patients I've worked with (AHP) - I have literally no idea how they got it and I don't have time to go digging around for info. Some got it in hospital off my colleagues - I don't judge them either!

Moondust001 · 01/01/2021 11:38

I'm not sure what the figures are now, but they'll be worse.... at the end of October 25% of covid cases were "hospital acquired". What that means is that the people entered hospital without the virus and only tested positive 14 days after entering hospital. Should we blame HCPs for infecting these people with a virus they didn't have when taken ill? Could it be "irresponsible" hospital staff mixing with their family or not taking proper precautions at work? Of course not. Blaming people for getting ill is appalling, and I'm not sure how you are going to identify those people who have broken the rules anyway - will there be an interrogation before you are admitted and only the deserving get treated. I'm frankly appalled anyone in healthcare has this attitude. But at least it seems you are being kept away from patients, which can only be a good thing.

peanacat · 01/01/2021 11:41

I’m a HCP, not front line, but have often worked with patients who have recovered already, or are in hospital with complications etc as I have to talk to them about their medicines they take. So often them ‘having recently had covid’ comes up. It has never, ever even occurred to me what you’re saying tbh. I feel sorry for them and happy that they had recovered. (A lot of them go on to tell me their OH didn’t survive it, or similar things, which is always horrible to hear)

However, I now realise that I do judge rule breakers outside of working hours and, I don’t necessarily think they are to blame per se, but I do think they didn’t help themselves particularly. So perhaps it’s the fact that at work, I go in with my non-judgemental, caring head on.

bringmelaughter · 01/01/2021 11:42

I absolutely don’t judge individuals however I do judge people circulating misinformation, harping on about their freedoms and badmouthing healthcare workers who are working so hard, dealing with traumatic episodes &, on over 600 occasions, paying with their lives.

So many responses on this Twitter thread tell you everything that’s wrong with our society: twitter.com/bmj_latest/status/1344600474125795329?s=21

JedwoodDeadwood · 01/01/2021 11:55

@IrmaFayLear

Interesting point.

I find it irritating that any covid victim is treated as a hero. I do remember a thread where posters were annoyed by tv showing covid recoverers being applauded and clapped out of hospital. Meanwhile in. a nearby ward a cancer patient is discharged with not even a wave goodbye.

Really? I'm not sure how common it is but certainly people I know who've finished chemotherapy have rung a ceremonial bell and have been clapped out of the unit by staff?
Jent13c · 01/01/2021 12:12

I think when you work in healthcare and see how many people are hospitalised due to lifestyle factors you really dont have time to judge. So say I've got a room full of 6 people really critically unwell with pancreatitis, 5 of them have caused it by drinking. I dont walk in their shoes, I have no idea what they have been through to cause them to drink a litre of vodka and almost kill themselves. So I have no judgement for them and treat them exactly the same I would any other patient. But the one who has not been drinking and his pancreas just randomly decided to shut down i might feel a little more sorry for?

Same with covid, I have no judgement for people not sticking to the rules. Everyone is struggling this year. BUT I may feel a little more sorry for the one old man in the room who caught it as an inpatient?

DownstairsMixUp · 01/01/2021 12:13

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Nobble · 01/01/2021 12:20

I'm a frontline HCP on a 100% Covid ward. I'm not sure why you think we would judge? There are lots of lifestyle illness and injuries but that's part and parcel of the job. We wouldn't chastise a rugby player with a broken arm for playing rugby.
Patients test positive and then receive treatment. A positive test doesn't then lead to questioning about how or where they caught it. If it comes to that I'm out!

Napqueen1234 · 01/01/2021 12:36

@peanacat I think that’s a very sensible response and I remember when working frontline I wouldn’t judge people when treating them regardless if you could argue their behaviour caused or led to their reason for needing medical treatment.

I’m sorry if I’ve upset people it’s hard to articulate because I really don’t blame covid patients or think it’s their fault. But I just find the blame of ‘others’ is quite an interesting phenomenon.

OP posts:
UseOfWeapons · 01/01/2021 12:45

@Nobble

I'm a frontline HCP on a 100% Covid ward. I'm not sure why you think we would judge? There are lots of lifestyle illness and injuries but that's part and parcel of the job. We wouldn't chastise a rugby player with a broken arm for playing rugby. Patients test positive and then receive treatment. A positive test doesn't then lead to questioning about how or where they caught it. If it comes to that I'm out!
Ditto. I don’t give a stuff how they got Covid, or diabetes, or whatever. Why would I? I’m there as their nurse, their advocate, to treat them and help them get well. I’m not there with a face like a cat’s arse, judging their lifestyle, choices, or social situation. Any HCP who is silently doing this needs to question if they are in the right job. I’m a nurse, for goodness sake. I want my patients to feel cared for and supported, not diminished, no matter who they are, or why they are under my care.
Babyroobs · 01/01/2021 12:52

@confuseddotcom090

Covid is like glitter. It's been sprinkled around and now it's everywhere. You'll find it it in places uou could swear it shouldn't be. Trying to attach and apportion blame is fruitless and pointless and unkind. Having a moral hierarchy of what is deemed necessary or essential interaction with the outside world is divisive and dangerous

Agreed. People never got blamed in the past for catching a virus, or indeed giving it to someone else unless it was extremely reckless/negligent (eg knowingly having HIV and unprotected sex)

I can remember a little boy sneezing on my sisters birthday cake and giving everyone mumps. Did he and his mother become pariahs? No they did not. But mumps can have nasty long term consequences.

If you want to throw blame around, why not throw it at the overweight? diabetes sucks up a huge proportion of the healthcare budget and we have all known for 9 months that being overweight increases the risk of COVID complications. Plenty of time for people to lose weight, yet they haven't. Maybe make that a COVID rule? Everyone with a BMI over 25 to have a 500 calorie deficit a day. Just as sensible and easy to enforce as all the other bullshit they come out with, but at least there is a scientific basis to it.

Not all diabetics are overweight, certainly not type 1 diabetics. I live in an area where over 50% of the population are of asian origin and they are just predisposed to type 2 diabetes. My colleague is borderline diabetic and is as slim as you'll find.
MistletoeandGin · 01/01/2021 13:00

I get what you’re saying OP. There is a lot of narrative around selfish rule breakers catching it and spreading it around to others, who then become seriously ill and die. When the fact is that some of those who become seriously ill and die will have caught it because they themselves have broken the rules. For some reason people are being divided into ‘selfish spreaders’ and ‘poor victims’.
Judging people for catching a virus is a very strange thing. We have never previously judged people for catching/spreading the flu (and many people will have unwittingly been involved in a train of transmission that has resulted in someone else’s death).
If we catch it as a family it will be because we have to go to work and to school. Like most, I imagine.

Dozer · 01/01/2021 13:03

Even if motivated to do so, how would a HCP even find out where patients caught the virus and/or which patients had broken rules?

Luckyrabbitfoot · 01/01/2021 13:03

My DM caught it, despite having not left the house since March. She also wipes down post, shopping etc.
The only place it could have come from is DF going to the supermarket, catching is asymptomatically and passing it on to her. Would you judge her for that?

MistletoeandGin · 01/01/2021 13:04

I don’t think the OP is saying that she judges anyone for catching it. She’s saying that there is a lot of judgement around people catching it and spreading it, and wondering if HCP’s feel that judgement for the people they’re treating.

foodtoorder · 01/01/2021 13:05

Not sure how we would know if they had not followed guidelines unless they told us directly.

Al1langdownthecleghole · 01/01/2021 13:07

@Harmarsuperstar

I don't judge my patients. It's not really conducive to a good therapeutic relationship. Unconditional positive regard!
This.

Could I also mention the high percentage of people who developed Covid in the first phase as a result of healthcare acquired infection?

My DM was in hospital for 3 weeks before she caught it and died 10 days later. She wasn’t out partying.

oohmamama · 01/01/2021 13:08

I had an op this week and one of the other surgeons was visiting his patient in my ward. They knew each other as her dad was his boss.

She asked him how his christmas had been and he replied 'oh, lovely, but stressful, we had the family come stay with us for a few days so lots of cooking and cleaning and tidying to do'.

I was Shock and glad he wasn't my surgeon....

Tier 2 so could have been a 'bubble' but from the way he shut up when the room went quiet - I don't think so...

BuildMeUpButtreCup · 01/01/2021 13:19

In general I get angry that people break the rules. Because I have seen the consequences. It is not really a feeling of judgement, more frustration. I do judge people who think spreading the virus doesnt matter because they themselves are young

But on an individual level, I dont feel any judgement towards any of my patients. People in hospital are vunerable and they place a great deal of trust in HCPs, I think I would be massively letting them down if I were to judge them. In normal times the majority of patients I see are realisitically self inflicted problems, but I am there to care for them not judge. And theres very few people out there who dont do anything to abuse their health. Even people who take great pride in being 'healthy'.

OTannenbaum · 01/01/2021 13:36

I’m a GP so not exactly frontline (although I will say it hasn’t at all been anything like the walk in the park that many seem to think it has been for GPs either).

I really try hard not to judge people. Sure I will point out where they are making what I would see as unwise decisions regarding their health and offer support to change but it’s unhelpful to judge and everyone has their own individual life struggles which impact upon people’s decisions anyway. I once met a heroin addict in her 20s. Her mother had started giving her heroin at the age of 7 😮 How could I judge her for being an addict now?

Of course it’s hard to be completely impartial when dealing with a known murderer or rapist or paedophile or domestic abuse perpetrator I grant you. But they are also entitled to medical care in a humane society such as ours, and often have had their own very troubled backgrounds which although not excusing their crimes does go some way towards explaining it. Plus how do we know this person is not the victim of a miscarriage of justice - rare but it definitely happens even in the UK.

When it comes to COVID I think we all know deep down that a viral pandemic is nobody’s fault and it’s silly to throw blame around in general. Having said that, I personally hold this government hugely more responsible than the general public for the shitshow that has been COVID in the UK. And the general public has mostly been way more compliant than anyone ever anticipated they would be. I saw an article today where an ITU consultant was moaning that people were drinking outside a takeaway/temporary outdoor bar and saying she had to fight her way through a whole “fifteen” people to get to the hairdresser as she wanted a trim before tier 4 kicked in... I’m thinking a. 15 people outdoors isn’t exactly huge hordes and b. she is still going out to get her hair cut when she knows it will be banned tomorrow... Yes there is an element of selfishness in those who flagrantly disobey the rules as it may impact on other people but I do think we have to give some credence to human nature and the fact that we have all been coping with this since March now, and seeing other countries deal with things so much better while we remain under endless lockdown because things aren’t put in place properly at the end of lockdowns and they aren’t used to get a handle on track and trace, close borders etc.

I think the reason we are seeing this narrative is 1. Because the government much prefers the public to be blaming each other and not them so they are deliberately feeding this narrative. This was made very clear to me when Hancock started telling people that too many people are selfishly going for a COVID test in September and there was a sudden deliberate confusing of what to do if you have a cough if it’s “just a cold” which I think was unforgivable messaging. And 2. Because NHS staff especially on the frontline are burned out, exhausted, demoralised, traumatised and in many cases I think they have genuinely reached the stage of just lashing out all round mixed with begging in desperation as they just can’t take it any more. Many many NHS staff privately very squarely blame the government but it’s surprisingly hard to get the message out there that the government are really to blame here. And there is a surprising amount of people still defending them.

We are currently in crisis mode (again) so the government is asking NHS staff to ask people to not be selfish, think of others and stay home, and in the current moment this is the right message to try to calm the situation down. But this government should never have let things get so out of control again after the summer. And I don’t trust them not to squander the opportunities of this curren all but lockdown too sadly. I do have hope with the vaccine though that life will be more normal by the summer and will be better than now by spring.

Of course I don’t want people throwing huge house parties etc. But who are we at this point to say that at the individual level seeing a friend illegally one day might not prevent that person’s suicide etc. How can we blame people for looking out for their mental health sensibly? We just have to look after our patients as best we can and trust that the huge majority of people are actually making huge sacrifices to do the right thing and there will always be some selfish bastards about which can’t really be helped, but even selfish bastards don’t deserve to die in a pandemic if they can be saved.

TheKeatingFive · 01/01/2021 13:40

Very thoughtful post from OTannenbaum