Friend said DH is abusing furlough

[amy198820]

DH been on furlough from 2 jobs since March (one full time job and one part time job he does one evening a week). He has been back to work on and off since the summer and is now on the flexi furlough scheme and both jobs have topped his pay to 100%. Since the tier 4 announcement he has been put back on furlough completely.

As tier 4 is looking like it will continue through Jan/Feb, and so unlikely he will be going back anytime soon DH had applied for another job to keep him busy rather than sit at home. DH found out before Christmas he has got the job and he has made this new employer aware that this job will just be a fill in whilst he is on furlough and the employer has accepted this and are happy to take him on. (its a friend of a friend type thing)

Spoke with my friend and earlier and told her about DH's new temporary position explaining that its better than him sitting at home all day /gives him something to do until all this passes etc. My friend took umbrage with this and said that we are abusing the system and that this isnt what the scheme was designed for. I didn't really know what to say and so said sorry she was offended and would speak to her later on.

For background before anyone says anything, I was not being insensitive, my friend has not suffered financially due to COVID as she has been working from home continuously throughout.

I want to call my friend back soon as to not let the bad feeling grow. How would you suggest I approach this? I do not think we are doing anything wrong, just trying to get through this pandemic and doing the best for our family as would anyone else.

I think he’s being really sensible!

The same characters backing the OP will be the ones spitting feathers over Amazon avoiding tax by routing their trade through Luxembourg. They will also be up in arms over Multi National Corporates reducing Corporation Tax by “charging themselves”for the use of their own brand (see Starbucks who charge a management charge to themselves). All perfectly legal but not in the spirit of how to do things.

A nation of Mr and Mrs Loopholes. A nation of hypocrites.

@TerryHearn

A nation of Mr and Mrs Loopholes. A nation of hypocrites.

This.

I do think large scale tax avoidance from mega companies is horrific. I reserve all my anger for them.

If this was a post about someone on benefits, earning a little cash in hand on the side and the OP wanted to shop them in, there would be 26 pages of people telling the OP to mind their business...

Instead you have someone getting flamed for legitimately and proactively trying to better their situation. There is some nasty resentment around for people on furlough, the vast majority of furloughed workers are low income workers, and the reality is the industries they work in will not recover, and they will lose their jobs.

Forgive me if I am repeating as I have not read the entire thread.

I do however think it’s important to remember that for some who are furloughed the maximum cap of £2500 makes up Only a fraction of their normal income. My husband has been furloughed since March as he works in the Live events industry. An industry unlikely to resume at all in 2021. Although receiving maximum furlough it barely covers our usual expenses. He has had to take on a new job in the past six months.

In the ops case if her husband is still receiving his usual complete salary he should consider himself incredibly fortunate. But perhaps he works in a sector where redundancy is likely. It’s a worrying time for job security.

I too am not impressed by individuals, nor companies taking advantage of loopholes.

BDO Stoy Hayward - accountants. Paying directors 58 million dividend. Took 4.2 million in furlough.

Yeah right!

It might be legal but I don't think it's in the spirit of the furlough scheme for someone getting 100% wages to go and get a second job. A lot of people have suffered during this pandemic and I'd be too ashamed to admit to anyone that my family was gaining financially from it. I know a lot of 'look out for number one, pulled myself up by my bootstraps me' types on here disagree, but you really can't be surprised that some people are resentful that others are taking advantage of something they don't have access to.

It's also interesting how you started off by saying he did it because he was bored and he tried to volunteer, and later on you say it's because he's worried about the future of his job and you're just trying to keep a roof over your kids heads 🤔

So how did the phone call go with your friend? I'm hoping by this thread you can understand why she was annoyed.

@Sooverthisyear

Forgive me if I am repeating as I have not read the entire thread.

I do however think it’s important to remember that for some who are furloughed the maximum cap of £2500 makes up Only a fraction of their normal income. My husband has been furloughed since March as he works in the Live events industry. An industry unlikely to resume at all in 2021. Although receiving maximum furlough it barely covers our usual expenses. He has had to take on a new job in the past six months.

In the ops case if her husband is still receiving his usual complete salary he should consider himself incredibly fortunate. But perhaps he works in a sector where redundancy is likely. It’s a worrying time for job security.

Not just those furloughed on higher incomes. At least they get the £2500 p.m. Self employed earning over £50k profit get nothing at all. Just another of the inconsistencies in the chancellors illogical support rules.

@ScottishBetty

It might be legal but I don't think it's in the spirit of the furlough scheme for someone getting 100% wages to go and get a second job. A lot of people have suffered during this pandemic and I'd be too ashamed to admit to anyone that my family was gaining financially from it. I know a lot of 'look out for number one, pulled myself up by my bootstraps me' types on here disagree, but you really can't be surprised that some people are resentful that others are taking advantage of something they don't have access to.

It's also interesting how you started off by saying he did it because he was bored and he tried to volunteer, and later on you say it's because he's worried about the future of his job and you're just trying to keep a roof over your kids heads 🤔

Initially, in the peak in spring DH did try to get volunteer work locally , but as I said we did not hear back at all. As time as gone on DH has become more concerned for his job security and so has looked for other work.

@Hapixmas

So how did the phone call go with your friend? I'm hoping by this thread you can understand why she was annoyed.

Called today, and just pretend nothing had happened, Neither she or I brought the subject up.

I'm not sure posters commenting on here livei n the real world where jobs are precarious. In March, they were begging furloughed workers to work in supermarkets, delivery, fruit picking etc.

All those saying he should volunteer, do you volunteer or understand about volunteer recruitment or are you just trotting cliches? As a long - term volunteer, I know many organisations are not taking on new volunteers due to social distancing. Volunteering is not just something you turn up & do, references are needed, training is required and many organisations just do not have the capacity to do this at the moment. Many who signed up enthusiastically for the national drive in March couldn't get any tasks.

Your husband is taking exactly what he entitled to and doing nothing wrong nor is he breaking any laws.

Don't most people take what their entitled to?

There are many flaws in the furlough system - some work in people's favour and some don't. Evaluation of the furlough system is another conversation altogether.

Ignore your friend and keep doing the right thing for your family.

People who have been furloughed are at greater risk of redundancy than others. By definition the scheme is there as an alternative to redundancy, but even so an awful lot of businesses are really struggling and will have to make redundancies if or when the furlough scheme ends.

This is not necessarily the case. In my work some were furloughed. When they then did redundancy, two who had not been furloughed were made redundant, the furloughed folk have all come back. In OH’s work, they are potentially going with redundancies but the depts they need to reduce post Covid are not the ones who have been furloughed.

All the construction companies I work with furloughed loads of staff because construction closed for a few months. But now they are back and they are looking to take on more people because they are quite busy.

Of course it's not universally the case that furloughed workers are at risk of redundancy, @MintyMabel, but the fact remains that, overall, they are at greater risk than people who have continued working for all the reasons stated upthread.

overall, they are at greater risk than people who have continued working for all the reasons stated upthread.

Except they aren't. What dictates your likelihood of redundancy is the industry / business you work in and how it will recover. Whether or not you are furloughed is irrelevant. It's drawing a false correlation.

Except they aren't. What dictates your likelihood of redundancy is the industry / business you work in and how it will recover. Whether or not you are furloughed is irrelevant. It's drawing a false correlation.

It depends.

We've made 50% of our staff redundant. All of those who were made redundant had been furloughed. Those who were not furloughed had been roles identified as absolutely essential. So when cuts had to be made they were safe and it was the furloughed staff that went.

@GintyMcGinty

Except they aren't. What dictates your likelihood of redundancy is the industry / business you work in and how it will recover. Whether or not you are furloughed is irrelevant. It's drawing a false correlation.

It depends.

We've made 50% of our staff redundant. All of those who were made redundant had been furloughed. Those who were not furloughed had been roles identified as absolutely essential. So when cuts had to be made they were safe and it was the furloughed staff that went.

But isn't the terms of furlough that you had to take them back on? correct me if I'm wrong I don't actually know.

Volunteering, whilst undoubtedly being very valuable and important, can also have its own consequences for the job market. Paid roles can sometimes be squeezed out by a surfeit of volunteers, leading to job losses.

One of the areas I used to work in was notorious for this, it attracted many skilled retired volunteers who were keen to give their time and keep busy but had no financial needs, and so naturally the organisations were keen to have them and save costs instead of paying employees.

@Wheresmykimchi But isn't the terms of furlough that you had to take them back on? correct me if I'm wrong I don't actually know.

There's no requirement at all to keep furloughed staff on.

There was briefly an incentive of a payment of £1K per person retained - but that disappeared when the furlough scheme was extended.

As far as I am aware furloughed employees can definitely be made redundant while on furlough & as someone said usually the furloughed staff are let go of first due to the staff still working deemed as the permanent or required staff.

We've made 50% of our staff redundant. All of those who were made redundant had been furloughed. Those who were not furloughed had been roles identified as absolutely essential. So when cuts had to be made they were safe and it was the furloughed staff that went.

Which is the choice of your business due to the requirements of the business. That doesn’t make it that if you are on furlough you are more likely to be made redundant.

We furloughed admin and reception staff, junior techs. There is no way we could operate if we made even some of them redundant.

as someone said usually the furloughed staff are let go of first due to the staff still working deemed as the permanent or required staff

Again, this is just not the case. In fact, OH had a hell of a time trying to get his staff to agree to furlough because of this type of bullshit being peddled. Three particular members of staff were really no use to him during lockdown as they looked after infrastructures on site which were not required as the site was closed down. When people returned to the office more, he needed those staff. They kept saying they didn’t want furlough because they didn’t want to be first in line for redundancy. What is required by a business during this period is not what will be required when they start up. Furlough was dictated by a different business need, not by long term usefulness of staff.

I feel sorry for all of you not on furlough who think you’re safe because you weren’t chosen.

@MintyMabel

overall, they are at greater risk than people who have continued working for all the reasons stated upthread.

Except they aren't. What dictates your likelihood of redundancy is the industry / business you work in and how it will recover. Whether or not you are furloughed is irrelevant. It's drawing a false correlation.

But if the business is on shaky ground - and plenty are - then if redundancies are needed the employers are going to look at those they feel they can do without. And if they've managed to do without furloughed employees since March it stands to reason that they are at risk. Denying the reality doesn't no-one any favours.

Feel like I'm in the twilight zone reading this thread. Like a snowball of angry responses whereas back in the real world, most people would jump at the chance to earn additional money for their family. Plus the man is (should be) paying back additional income tax on the third job, so is paying more back into the system than those furloughed who weren't able to gain an additional job.

For every job anybody ever accepts, there will always be someone more in need of that job.

And as if the OPs DH is going to donate his earnings from his third job 😂. Get take feck.

Jeebo Christ on a bike.

And if they've managed to do without furloughed employees since March it stands to reason that they are at risk. Denying the reality doesn't no-one any favours.

It depends when they furloughed and when they are making redundancies. As I said, we furloughed reception and office admin staff. We will need them when the office reopens fully. We have retained fee earning staff. If more projects are cancelled, we won’t need so many of them. We furloughed junior tech staff and had fee earning senior project staff doing the junior tech work. It would be ridiculous for this to continue, paying seniors to carry out junior tasks means project fees are eaten up and seniors could handle fewer projects. Undoubtedly if workload doesn’t increase, senior staff would be made redundant. It’s not as simple as having been able to do without juniors for this period, long term as a business model we would go bust.

Restaurants have furloughed serving staff. You think they can do without them when they open fully?