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Not looking good for schools. Evidence of more “explosive” covid outbreaks.

75 replies

Mumof3andlovingit · 23/12/2020 11:48

Was expected really as scientists were hinting that the new strain was more prevalent amongst students in schools.
Let’s hope the government make the right decision in regards to schools now 🤞

OP posts:
Hercwasonasnowball · 23/12/2020 13:13

Obviously lucky schools with no cases could stay open.

But with testing to make sure they don’t actually have cases.

Completely agree.

cantkeepawayforever · 23/12/2020 13:13

@notagoodyear

Not anti-union, but remember in June, it was the unions who stopped schools reopening and were able to limit reopening to exam years only in secondaries (and 3 year groups in primaries also).
No.

The government created the rules under which schools could partially re-open on 1st June.

Then they announced this would be extended, but specifically prohibited rotas.

Then some people who had actually been into schools pointed out that the Government's own rules (separate bubbles of 15 per classroom) meant that a re-opening to all years wasn't possible.

Then the Government decided to point fingers at unions, in the hope that the public would fall for their distraction trick rather than noticing that it was the Government's own rules that were at fault.

Some people obviously fell for the government's spin.....

Hercwasonasnowball · 23/12/2020 13:16

I’m not qualified to comment on the evidence base surrounding the likely factors in that transmission.

I don't think you need many any qualifications to work out that being in a room with 30+ people, no masks, no social distancing, is probably the most likely way covid is being transmitted.

JassyRadlett · 23/12/2020 13:18

I don't think you need many any qualifications to work out that being in a room with 30+ people, no masks, no social distancing, is probably the most likely way covid is being transmitted.

I didn’t know that posting the full quote of the person quoted in the thread title would be quite this controversial.

To reiterate - I have not advanced any opinions except that I agree this requires a public policy response.

DayBath · 23/12/2020 13:20

Thanks @JassyRadlett , I came in to the thread looking for the source of the title wording so it's a helpful post. Smile

JassyRadlett · 23/12/2020 13:22

No worries - it was in evidence to the Commons Sci & Tech Committee so should be in Hansard soon if not already - looks like a really fascinating and important wider session on what NERVTAG know about the new variant.

HotPenguin · 23/12/2020 13:25

I'm in a tier 2 area and cases have doubled in a week. I think that shows tier 2 restrictions aren't working and u fortunately more restrictions are needed.

Quartz2208 · 23/12/2020 13:26

I think for some areas this is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted - a staggered start to the term and testing is likely I guess they really are sticking to this (I would welcome a 2-3 week delay).

Weirdly I imagine it is more of a concern in the current lower areas than those current very high

HailFairy · 23/12/2020 13:27

@notagoodyear

Not anti-union, but remember in June, it was the unions who stopped schools reopening and were able to limit reopening to exam years only in secondaries (and 3 year groups in primaries also).
That’s complete nonsense. Schools opened up in exactly the way the DfE and Government told them to.

It wasn’t the unions fault that the DfE plan was ‘we’ll do our best to get everyone back. But anyone back has to be there full time. But in half class sizes of 15. But we won’t give you any more money. Of course you can’t get more staff. And you absolutely mustn’t use any local community spaces to extend the space available to you.’ It was the Government & their unworkable plan that blocked wider reopening earlier. Not the unions.

DecemberSun · 23/12/2020 13:29

@notagoodyear

Not anti-union, but remember in June, it was the unions who stopped schools reopening and were able to limit reopening to exam years only in secondaries (and 3 year groups in primaries also).
ah, straight from the Trump book of facts that aren't really.

Stop lying.

SansaSnark · 23/12/2020 13:30

There definitely needs to be some kind of rethink re schools.

I think there is perhaps a growing acceptance that not all schools will be able to reopen as normal on the 4th or the 11th.

I think the government is perhaps softening us up for a more staggered start in January, with more time to roll out testing.

However, the testing plans really concern me- testing close contacts instead of sending them home and testing symptomatic children in school, and only sending them home if they get a positive. The lateral flow tests are not as accurate. There is plenty of PCR capacity.

I think testing the wider school population with lateral flow tests is a good idea, but it should not replace the current isolation and testing policy.

I also think that the rota plans that the DfE quickly shelved may need to be dusted off.

IloveJKRowling · 23/12/2020 13:44

What I don't understand with the response in schools is - what happened to the precautionary principle?

It almost seems like people are saying - until we have evidence this is bad for kids in schools, we should carry on as is - but if we do that and it turns out this variant spreads more rapidly among children (particularly unmasked children in schools) then IT WILL BE TOO LATE for many many people who will die. And that's even if it doesn't cause worse disease in the children themselves, which if we don't have enough data, surely is also unknown?

Surely with an unpredictable pandemic we should be a little bit precautionary when something new turns up? Give ourselves a few weeks to figure out what's going on before we shove a load of children back into unventilated, crowded indoor environments for 6 hours a day?

IloveJKRowling · 23/12/2020 13:45

The virus isn't going to wait while we gather all the scientific evidence, after all.

Armi · 23/12/2020 13:45

I know that having kids at home is inconvenient/difficult/impossible for some. I wonder if lots of people sort of convince themselves that schools are ok, in the way convince ourselves that our dogs are ok being left alone for hours on end, or that elderly relatives are fine and don’t need a visit from us, or that a medical issue will get better by itself. If people actually sat down and properly thought about what the set up is like in schools, I’m not convinced that keeping schools open at all costs would be such a popular mantra.

Schools really aren’t ok. You can tell yourself as much as you like that it’s fiiiiine that teenagers are packed into classrooms without masks, that kids are in bubbles of 250, that teachers are fiiiine going from bubble to bubble teaching without masks (although my school have been brilliant and allow us to wear them to teach in - many colleagues in other schools have been banned from wearing masks in the classroom). You can tell yourself that kids don’t spit at each other (caught a Year 7 kid doing this just last Thursday) or grapple with each other, or sit on top of each other at break and lunch time. You can tell yourself that the footage on the BBC is how schools are - five kids in a giant classroom- when really you know that there are 35 kids in your daughter’s geography class. You can tell yourself it’s all under control and that toilet facilities are plentiful, hygienic and students operate a ‘one in, one out’ routine to minimise potential spread.

The fact is, there are too many kids, not enough space and this virus spreads in conditions where lots of people are squashed in together, particularly people who aren’t bothered about all the fuss because they consider themselves to be invincible, so will cheerfully ignore handwashing, distancing and all other advice. People need to face up to the fact that just saying schools are safe doesn’t actually make them safe.

JS87 · 23/12/2020 13:50

If parents want their children in school they are going to have to agree to make them wear masks. I can’t see how secondary schools can reopen without masks at the very least.

IloveJKRowling · 23/12/2020 13:57

If parents want their children in school they are going to have to agree to make them wear masks

Yes, this.

Am contemplating doing my own risk assessment and telling the school I won't be sending DD back unless masks are made mandatory, except for exemptions obviously. Even if only 50% were wearing them it'd reduce the risk by a huge amount.

Lots of teachers around the world wear them without it disrupting learning at all.

Ariela · 23/12/2020 14:00

I'm surprised (or I might have missed it), but why is there not a government scheme of online classes with material for all ages / abilities /exam boards with a decent indexing system so key areas covered is easy to find that's available for anyone isolating to view instead of normal school? Then it'd be a case of teacher finding relevant lessons and sending the links out for any missing class members.

Barbie222 · 23/12/2020 14:02

@Ariela

I'm surprised (or I might have missed it), but why is there not a government scheme of online classes with material for all ages / abilities /exam boards with a decent indexing system so key areas covered is easy to find that's available for anyone isolating to view instead of normal school? Then it'd be a case of teacher finding relevant lessons and sending the links out for any missing class members.
There is: it's called Oak Academy. It was set up during the last lockdown and I've been using it as and when it fits with my curriculum.
Hercwasonasnowball · 23/12/2020 14:03

@Ariela Oak Academy does this (for the most part, it isn't without issues).

ChloeDeckTheHalls · 23/12/2020 14:12

I think it says a lot about how rubbish the govt is that so few people still no nothing about The Oak National Academy that the govt actually put money in to! There’s been a few threads today when no one has mentioned it.
It has been very helpful with the lots of self isolation I have had to do with my 5 year old last half term, when catching up with school work in the evenings and weekends, whilst working full time.

cantkeepawayforever · 23/12/2020 14:14

@Ariela

I'm surprised (or I might have missed it), but why is there not a government scheme of online classes with material for all ages / abilities /exam boards with a decent indexing system so key areas covered is easy to find that's available for anyone isolating to view instead of normal school? Then it'd be a case of teacher finding relevant lessons and sending the links out for any missing class members.
Oak Academy exists.

However, unless as a school you decided to align your curriculum EXACTLY with what they have decided (so e.g. exactly the same English texts, exactly the same material for each lesson in Science / History etc), it is hard to use it as a replacement for e.g. 10 days of lessons for a couple of children isolating, or a whole class isolating right in the middle of a series of lessons.

It's undifferentiated for the needs of specific classes (or specific schools, in terms of e.g. calculation policy, approach to grammar, sequence of learning) and quite a lot of it, though obviously better than nothing, is 'average' at best.

cantkeepawayforever · 23/12/2020 14:17

So if, for example, the government were to declare that the whole of next half term would be at home, then I would definitely plan to draw on the Oak Academy as a source for some sequences of lessons in some subjects, to replace the wholly different sequence of lessons i would have planned to teach in school.

But it is less suitable as a 'dip in and out of' replacement for lessons during shorter term isolations.

Hercwasonasnowball · 23/12/2020 14:18

Agreed cant. It also doesn't have many of the specialist GCSEs and A levels. (not that I'd expect this, just means that those teachers can't use it).

It does what it says on the tin for ks1-3.

TonMoulin · 23/12/2020 14:24

@Armi

I know that having kids at home is inconvenient/difficult/impossible for some. I wonder if lots of people sort of convince themselves that schools are ok, in the way convince ourselves that our dogs are ok being left alone for hours on end, or that elderly relatives are fine and don’t need a visit from us, or that a medical issue will get better by itself. If people actually sat down and properly thought about what the set up is like in schools, I’m not convinced that keeping schools open at all costs would be such a popular mantra.

Schools really aren’t ok. You can tell yourself as much as you like that it’s fiiiiine that teenagers are packed into classrooms without masks, that kids are in bubbles of 250, that teachers are fiiiine going from bubble to bubble teaching without masks (although my school have been brilliant and allow us to wear them to teach in - many colleagues in other schools have been banned from wearing masks in the classroom). You can tell yourself that kids don’t spit at each other (caught a Year 7 kid doing this just last Thursday) or grapple with each other, or sit on top of each other at break and lunch time. You can tell yourself that the footage on the BBC is how schools are - five kids in a giant classroom- when really you know that there are 35 kids in your daughter’s geography class. You can tell yourself it’s all under control and that toilet facilities are plentiful, hygienic and students operate a ‘one in, one out’ routine to minimise potential spread.

The fact is, there are too many kids, not enough space and this virus spreads in conditions where lots of people are squashed in together, particularly people who aren’t bothered about all the fuss because they consider themselves to be invincible, so will cheerfully ignore handwashing, distancing and all other advice. People need to face up to the fact that just saying schools are safe doesn’t actually make them safe.

Agree with all this

The other side of the coin is parents working from home whilst also trying to homeschool/support/look after their dcs. It’s women deciding to stop working because it’s too hard to do both.

It’s the effect on children both academically and on MH grounds. Affecting of course the most disadvantaged pupils. It’s the fact many pupils don’t have easy Access to a computer....

The balance is very hard to find again (and yes masks should be compulsory throughout)

Matilda03 · 23/12/2020 14:26

I'm in tier 4 and my ds is in reception. We have been lucky enough to have never had to isolate and he hasn't missed any school. They have had one case in a different year. I will be so sad if schools close as he has settled so well and loves it but I worry for the school staff if children pass it on more easily. A rota system seems like a good way to go. I tutor secondary school pupils and some of them have been on rotas (one week on one week off) for a few months because of staffing but it's obviously easier for their parents to work as they are older.

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