Covid and Selfishness

[Wrecktal]

I’ve head the word ‘selfish’ being used a lot in relation to Covid. I remember reading Dawkins in my twenties, and being quite blown away by the concept that we are all selfish - and that even the most altruistic act can be perceived as indirectly ‘selfish’. With Covid, and listening to David Attenborough about the most likely cause of Covid - I wanted to have a very scaled back Christmas. Yet I’ve ordered rubbish from Amazon, bought more mince pies than I need and not yet given to charity as I promised myself I’d do. Why? Because I’m selfish. Obviously my initial plans for Christmas would have been far more altruistic, but I chose to put my family first - which could ultimately be to their detriment. So - is the answer in the battle against Covid - to reach a different level of altruism,

I think the thing that separates us from animals - the key thing - is our social selfishness. Think other animal species do display this, but not to the extent that humans have - and it’s allowed us to take over the planet like no other animal species.

Yes, I think it's fundamental human nature to need to look after ourselves and our families first.

That's not to say that our desire to do that can't have a significant positive impact on others too. So I might "selfishly" join a PTA to fundraise and make improvements to my child's primary school because I want it to be a great school with good facilities and trips, but lots of other children would also benefit from my selfish act.

I think the meaning of selfish gets stretched to breaking point in a lot of that debate in moral philosophy/economics/evolutionary biology.

@Waxonwaxoff0

I'm sick to death of hearing "selfish" to be honest. It's human nature to care more about yourself and your own family than strangers. There is only so much you can ask people to sacrifice for the "greater good". How far are we expected to go?

This. The same sanctimonious claptrap is trotted out about vaccines, too. As if people only have their kids vaccinated for the good of society, they have their kids vaccinated because they don't want them to be ill.

There are a very few truly altruistic people in the world. They are not all on MN, despite their best efforts to pretend that they are. Hypocrisy is alive and well.

@PhilCornwall1

Obviously my initial plans for Christmas would have been far more altruistic, but I chose to put my family first

It will be unpopular, but I put my wife and boys first, last and in the middle. They are the most important in my life and anything/one else is way down the list.

Yes, people will think that's selfish and fine, that's their point of view, but it sits completely comfortably with me.

I think pretty much everyone, if they're being straight with us, would agree.

We've heard so many people over the past 9 months chastise 'selfish idiots' for 'flocking to beaches' or 'crowding into pubs' because someone in their family is vulnerable. Essentially they are saying that strangers have to sacrifice indefinitely to benefit them and their families. So they are being just as 'selfish' as those they chastise.

@SuperbGorgonzola yes - people would and should put their families first. But I’m order to combat Covid, is the key strategy to think more with our ‘PTA’ head, and less with our ‘family’ head. E.g in this situation, if ensure our family has the basics (food, shelter, warmth, security). Is it Marlows triangle? We scale back what we would normally have, in order to put more into the social well being of our community. As this will ultimately benefit our family the most.

I also feel like you can apply selfish to most people. For instance those who don’t want lockdowns and think we should go about our lives are ‘selfish’ for putting vulnerable at risk, and those who do want more lockdowns (schools to shut etc) are ‘selfish’ for putting certain people at risk of economic, mental, physical hardships. We are all selfish.

@IcedPurple I do agree that people addressing others as ‘selfish’ (I do it myself) is perhaps not self aware. In a similar way people are very quick to address others as ‘bullies’ with out being aware of their own ability to bully.

So we cannot achieve all levels of the triangle, due to Covid. But if we focus on the base of the triangle, and recognise that the other levels are less achievable until we combat Covid.

@Wrecktal I think it comes back to the idea of charity as well and what is meant by us "going without".

By me being altruistic, I could for instance buy no presents for adults, and give the money to a local charity. However, if a large number of people did that, it would mean a cut in profits for local businesses which in turn could lead to job losses and financial hardship.

Alternatively, I could have the best Christmas I can afford for my family, but target my spending to small businesses, hopefully helping them claw back some of the money they've lost to Covid, and stay afloat into the new year, keeping their staff on, and not leaving empty shop fronts.

So I guess my conclusion would be, in order to give my family the greatest benefit during Covid, I need to give a greater focus to the needs of my community.

We've heard so many people over the past 9 months chastise 'selfish idiots' for 'flocking to beaches' or 'crowding into pubs' because someone in their family is vulnerable. Essentially they are saying that strangers have to sacrifice indefinitely to benefit them and their families. So they are being just as 'selfish' as those they chastise.

You've nailed it 100% with this.

@Waxonwaxoff0

I'm sick to death of hearing "selfish" to be honest. It's human nature to care more about yourself and your own family than strangers. There is only so much you can ask people to sacrifice for the "greater good". How far are we expected to go?

Absolutely! But the fact is that the actions we're taking ARE to protect ourselves and our families. Yes, strangers too, but I'm sure most people are doing what they're doing for the benefit of their direct relatives.

Interesting thread

How do those who out themselves first all the time feel when someone else's action impacts them? E.g. if someone sent their kid into school with symptoms then tests positive then your child to isolate? Just interested?

Am I selfish? Probably. No other bugger with look out for me and my family.

I certainly feel more self absorbed now than I did 12 months ago, but that's what will happen for containing me with 3 other people (two being children, one with SNs) with minimal external social input for 9+ months, for severing me from the communities I volunteered with, and expecting me to physically distance from the expressionless strangers in public who I struggle to communicate with with their obsucred faces and voices muffled behind fabric and screens.

It was easier to think bigger when I had regular contact with other humans, and wasn't breaking laws by 2x4 going for a walk, or going into a house because the risk of hypothermia exceeds Covid at that moment, and the risk of a mental crash after months of social neglect higher still.

I do care that I've come to a brink several times in the past 6 months. I do care that school didn't adequately provide education or check on a child with multiple SNs in 5.5 months.

I'm not holding wild parties. But I can not function for a year with only socialising with my immediate family and it is selfish of society to demand that I break in the face of a virus of negligable serious risk to my household. I follow the rules 99% of the time, but that final 1% is not worth the cost.

At least I never have been a hypocrite and have always been on the side for preserving human nature and other aspects of well-being.

We're now at the point that I don't think my DCs would grieve for the grannies that they haven't seen in 12+ months, and people in their 80s don't live forever, Covid or not (Distance, general health and attitude to risk being factors in it being so long)

As if people only have their kids vaccinated for the good of society, they have their kids vaccinated because they don't want them to be ill

I don’t disagree but in the example of vaccines it only works if enough people do it. On an individual level it doesn’t do much. It’s about ability to see and trust in the bigger picture still being of the larger benefit to you as an individual.

@sleepwouldbenice

Interesting thread

How do those who out themselves first all the time feel when someone else's action impacts them? E.g. if someone sent their kid into school with symptoms then tests positive then your child to isolate? Just interested?

I don't think anyone is saying that they 'put themselves first all the time'. Just that, when it comes down to it - or even when it doesn't - people put the welfare of themselves and their families above that of strangers.

Even in the example you mention, supporting the practice of having children isolate when showing symptoms will ultimately protect you and your own child.

As if people only have their kids vaccinated for the good of society, they have their kids vaccinated because they don't want them to be ill

I was honestly frightened at the MMR jab

Ds1 had the two required jabs and both times the papers were full of ‘the jab’

I have a dreadful feeling that i only went ahead because i was worried about what other people would think about me

On the charity thing, set it up now on a direct debit. I changed mine back in April to domestic and local charities - it comes out of my account the day after pay day and I don't think about it. Even £5 a month on a direct debit gives charities a guaranteed amount that they know they can allocate. And you might not miss £5 a month if it's gone almost before you have it.

@IcedPurple absolutely spot on!

@willsantausesantatize

This thread is a bit depressing. I help people out because I want to. Not to make me feel better about myself. It's not much : a bit of money to help them out or a bunch of flowers or something nothing huge but I like making people feel as if they can rely on me in a crisis : a willing ear if they need to talk. I'm a good listener. It's nothing really but it comes from a place of empathy as so many of my friends are going through hell , especially now. I didn't realize it was me being the selfish one though ! ( I'm no saint I know , but I want to just be there for my friends and family now and again ) Maybe I shouldn't be like this then?

I don't think it's wrong to be selfish in this way (though my eyes roll out my face and across the floor when people trot out that "charity is only really charitable if you don't tell anyone" line).

The only thing I would consider is whether what you're doing is genuinely helpful to other people or is it's just the thing you want to do to make you feel good.

An excellent example of the latter was our old office assistant. She LOVED buying everyone biscuits. Cheap biscuits so she could buy more. Mounds of cheap biscuits would be brought in weekly. We tried to reduce the frequency, the volume, but our willpower was continually being poked. We tried relocating the biscuits. She just bought more. You know. To be nice.

We all lost about a stone each after she quit. But in her head, she was the kind and munificent biscuit supplier.

Me, I selfishly and happily help out retailers by buying their stuff for me.

Having been raised in a religious household I ponder if this selfish gene, inherent in all humanity, is what is described in the Bible as original sin? We are all predisposed to put ourselves first as opposed to others.

I find it interesting when people expound their own unselfish acts online as evidence they are unselfish. Surely announcing such acts negates their unselfishness and puts the focus back on the poster? Storing up unselfish acts in our heads or sharing them with others is ultimately about our egos.

I've actually been astonished at how willing people have been to endure enormous changes to their own lives when for most their own risk is so small. I would have predicted before any of this that will to comply would have been far lower and the point where compliance crumbled to the point that restrictions were unenforceable would have come a long, long time ago. To be clear, I'm not advocating that people shouldn't have been complying (and I am myself) but I think the majority of people have been acting through a concern for the wider community is actually very high.

@Wrecktal

So I guess my conclusion would be, in order to give my family the greatest benefit during Covid, I need to give a greater focus to the needs of my community.

I would agree with that. I think the two are definitely related. Personally, I feel that where possible, people would prefer to support themselves in good employment, in a community that is prosperous, and where there is little need for charity because there are sufficient opportunities.

God, I sound like a right Tory, don't I?

Logically if we were basing decisions on the greater good of all people (with most people not at risk and 1/3 of people with covid showing no symptoms at all) we would not be locking down and obliterating our economy and our children’s futures. I understand the issue is also nhs capacity, threat of anarchy etc.