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No longer a national priority to keep schools open

919 replies

noelgiraffe · 19/12/2020 13:52

The government has surreptitiously dropped its priority to keep schools open.

It has replaced it with a priority to “keep education open”.

Remote learning is now a viable alternative to keeping schools open (as opposed to last Monday when it was a matter for the high court).

In the DfE media blog, tweeted earlier today regarding the delayed start to term in January they say:

“ Is this an extension of the Christmas holiday?

No, this isn’t an extension of the holiday and we haven’t asked that the start of term is delayed.

All students will return to education from the first day of term. Secondary school and college students should learn remotely for one week except those in exam years, vulnerable young people and the children of critical workers. It remains our national priority to keep education open and we are not closing education for any period other than during the set holiday periods.”

Interesting development.

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ohwhatamiserableyear · 20/12/2020 12:39

I think the government should be including school staffs as a national vaccination priority. If you want schools to remain open and education to continue to be provided across the country no matter what, then teachers, teaching assistants and school support workers should be vaccinated sooner rather than later. Can't keep schools open without standing staff.

noelgiraffe · 20/12/2020 12:44

I am not affiliated with U4T but I wholeheartedly support them.

What a massive surprise.

I've also noticed previous U4T posters claiming that they aren't actually U4T because they're not I dunno, paying subs or something, as if that makes a difference to the fact that they're spouting all their bollocks.

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Ozzie9523 · 20/12/2020 12:46

@ohwhatamiserableyear

I think the government should be including school staffs as a national vaccination priority. If you want schools to remain open and education to continue to be provided across the country no matter what, then teachers, teaching assistants and school support workers should be vaccinated sooner rather than later. Can't keep schools open without standing staff.
I agree, teaching staff should be up there with NHS staff.
sherrystrull · 20/12/2020 12:47

@dividedwefall

I am not part of Us For Them, as I have already said.

I totally agree that children who are CEV or in families that are CEV should have been allowed to stay home without fine or penalty. Very shocked this was not the case.

Maybe my view is coloured by the fact that we know people who tested positive just because they were tested as part of a national programme. We don't know anyone who has HAD COVID, we don't know anyone who has tested positive with more than a sniffle and we certainly don't know anyone who has died from it.

And because the stats are massively skewed in favour of COVID (deaths within 28 days of a +VE test, a test over which there are significant concerns about false positives) the true scale of actual illness and death, especially in younger people, is impossible to know.

For that reason, the very harsh restrictions we have been living under in some parts of the country are totally disproportionate to the reality around us. And that's why I cannot stand seeing these posts wanting schools closed to children again. It is all downside, no upside when you live where we do.

What about staff who are CEV? Or who have CEV family members?
Shieldingending · 20/12/2020 12:47

@ohwhatamiserableyear

I think the government should be including school staffs as a national vaccination priority. If you want schools to remain open and education to continue to be provided across the country no matter what, then teachers, teaching assistants and school support workers should be vaccinated sooner rather than later. Can't keep schools open without standing staff.
100% agree with this! However, if the government did prioritise vaccinating school staff that would be tantamount to admitting that there is a problem in schools wouldn't it? Which they won't ....
ohwhatamiserableyear · 20/12/2020 12:49

There's a petition to do so; hoping it will get the signatures needed at least to make them talk about it.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/554316?fbclid=IwAR3HPGR065DJyG-kUWeMASr86foV-Fn50HmKQS5h_2aB7KgNF-wT14yFXUs

dividedwefall · 20/12/2020 12:50

If I was affiliated with them I would say so. I wouldn't be embarrassed by it at all. I just think I should point out that I am not when I am accused of being so, so that my posts are read as from an ordinary parent rather than as a political activist.

If everyone who disagrees with you and thinks you are overreacting/trying to ruin children's lives is accused of being from an organised political movement, it makes it seem like you are in the right and in the majority when you are not. It is not useful to anyone to dismiss opposing voices in that way.

Itisasecret · 20/12/2020 12:52

@dividedwefall

If I was affiliated with them I would say so. I wouldn't be embarrassed by it at all. I just think I should point out that I am not when I am accused of being so, so that my posts are read as from an ordinary parent rather than as a political activist.

If everyone who disagrees with you and thinks you are overreacting/trying to ruin children's lives is accused of being from an organised political movement, it makes it seem like you are in the right and in the majority when you are not. It is not useful to anyone to dismiss opposing voices in that way.

You are part of a organised political movement. Your disgusting language gives that away.

Just because you don’t recognise that, doesn’t make it less so.

dividedwefall · 20/12/2020 12:59

It feels like you are not reading or listening properly @Itisasecret. Like you are so entrenched in your rightness that it is impossible you might be wrong, or that an ordinary person might disagree with you without having an ulterior motive.

As for disgusting language? Just highlights how prone to overreaction you really are. Smile

mrshoho · 20/12/2020 13:00

And look at mess this political movement has helped to cause. Schools opened at all costs, ignoring the fact that it has undoubtedly led to high transmission. They didn't want masks, accused school staff of being workshy even though they worked all through this pandemic and weren't prepared to listen to school staff's suggestions for safety measures.

noelgiraffe · 20/12/2020 13:02

I wouldn't be embarrassed by it at all

Their facebook page is full of covid-denying anti-vaxxer stuff.

Which makes sense.

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Itisasecret · 20/12/2020 13:03

@dividedwefall

It feels like you are not reading or listening properly *@Itisasecret*. Like you are so entrenched in your rightness that it is impossible you might be wrong, or that an ordinary person might disagree with you without having an ulterior motive.

As for disgusting language? Just highlights how prone to overreaction you really are. Smile

Keep trying. 🤭
Witchend · 20/12/2020 13:04

I feel horrified that a handful of paranoid, anxiety ridden probably left wing financially comfortable parents are agitating for more school closures. Don't you even care about the impact on your own children, Never mind those children from less fortunate families or who find these unnecessary significantly more difficult than you?

Actually I'm not paranoid or anxiety driven.

I care about the children from less fortunate families who are being impacted by the decision that they have to be in school unless isolating.
If you look at the statistics the lowest socio-economic group is the most likely to get it. That's from the government statistics that they publish each week.

By having all the children in school unless you're isolating produces this:

  1. As above the lowest s-e group is most likely to get it, so most likely to be off due to either having it or a family member with it.
  1. If they're off, they're less likely to have computers/internet. But if you know they have a planned time off, something can be arranged. Like the laptops the government promised (and provided a tiny fraction of what they said, but oh well). If they're suddenly sent home then there's less time and less likely to be able to sort this.
  1. Then if the majority of children are online learning through planning, like in the summer, the vulnerable children can come in more safely. They can't if they're isolating, but if it's a planned closure they can arrange for that-as most schools did.
  1. If half the year is online and half at school, then the teachers can't do both. Which are they going to do? The ones who will riot in front of them if they don't, naturally. So those at home won't get much support. And there it's a case that the more privileged children will gain as their parents are more likely to have access to what is needed.

5.If the support staff are then freed up from their normal activities, they can, as they were in our local schools, be contacting the children they know are vulnerable and offering specific help. Be that food parcels, internet packages, or a listening ear.

And that's before you get into the children who have health conditions and disabilities.

and because the stats are massively skewed in favour of COVID (deaths within 28 days of a +VE test, a test over which there are significant concerns about false positives) the true scale of actual illness and death, especially in younger people, is impossible to know.
Stats are massively skewed in covid? Haha!

False positives are far less common than false negative. False positives are less than 1%. So assuming that it's exactly 1%, yesterday we had 27000 cases, approximately. So false positives would be 2700.
False negatives, they're not quite sure but somewhere in the range of 2-20%.
Let's for ease call it 2%, so the lowest number. The last testing date had 375k tests. 350k tested negative. So 7000 tested falsely negative.

So overall around the number of cases should be up over 4k.

Now go onto deaths from covid. They reduced it down from 60 days to 28 days from a positive covid test. Now of the 6 people I have known who died of covid, and yes, they did die of covid, 3 would not be in the current statistics because they died after 28 days.
This is quite simply that covid is often a long term illness.

Now you're probably thinking of the oft quoted "if they died in a car crash." Okay. Do you know how many people died in a car crash in 2019 (probably fewer in 2020 on the basis fewer journeys have been done)? It's about 1700. Out of 67k deaths that is approximately 2.5% percent. That's assuming each of those deaths had had a positive test within 28 days.

Then we had the "he died of cancer not covid, why is covid on the death certificate." If you ask doctors here, they have explained, better than I can, that when someone has cancer, it isn't the cancer that kills them. It's pneumonia or organ failure as a result of the cancer. The doctors are completely correct to say that covid was the actual cause of death. Cancer meant they were susceptible, but wasn't actually the cause of death.
And one of the people I mentioned above, I knew died, had cancer. They'd been living with it for nearly 15 years, and was expecting to do another 15 years at least. Of the 6 deaths I know about, only one wouldn't have expected to see next Easter.

And lastly, generally scientists think the best way of estimating covid deaths is to look at the excess death figures. Covid deaths are around 67k now, excess deaths are around 80k.

DecentHour · 20/12/2020 13:08

@MarshaBradyo

This from a pp where is it from? I assume a gov document

Schools and colleges will remain open during term time in Tier 4 areas. The Government will continue to prioritise the wellbeing and long-term futures of our young people. It remains very important for children and young people to attend

Still committed I’d take it over scrutinising a tweet. It is still clear anyway they will not be closed.

Its here: www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home @MarshaBradyo
herecomestheSon · 20/12/2020 13:08

Personally I feel horrified that a handful of paranoid, anxiety ridden probably right of Attila-the-Hun financially comfortable parents are agitating to disrupt a sensible discussion about safer school provision.

Don't you even care about the impact on your own children, Never mind those children from less fortunate families or who might find themselves without the support and love of their parents, bereaved at a crucial stage of their school careers?

noelgiraffe · 20/12/2020 13:11

I wonder how many more kids in Greenwich, Waltham Forest and Islington caught this new strain of covid due to the government forcing schools in those now Tier 4 areas back open for the final few days of term.

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BlueBrian · 20/12/2020 13:17

The Tory pledge to keep schools open is probably just as worthless as everything else they've promised so far, probably best for parents to assume schools won't be open for weeks, if not months at the beginning of next year, and plan accordingly.

TheHoneyBadger · 20/12/2020 13:19

My dad has prostrate cancer which has begun to spread into his bones. It was scary at first and he started testosterone blocking treatment and had 6 weeks of chemotherapy.

That was nearly 2 years ago. He continues with hormone treatment and has regular bloodtests and less regular scans with the most recent being a month or so ago and saying all good. He will always 'have' cancer because prostrate cancer can't be cured but can be very effectively held in check meaning he, at 74, is more likely to die of something else than his cancer.

Back before people could get tests or even see a doctor and just had to call 111 he and my mum got ill and were told over the phone they most likely had covid. Luckily/or the opposite depending on how you look at it he had a collapsed lung before the prostrate cancer and is treated as if he has copd (even though it isn't progressive and doesn't cause him much bother) and therefore has all manner of inhalers and steroids available. They were really poorly and my mum says one night she woke up because the bed was shaking and it was him shivering. They had support on the phone and he had all of his steroids and inhalers available to him to help with chest issues.

If he had died you'd write him off as ah well he had cancer anyway. Reality is his cancer won't kill him unless he lives way beyond his life expectancy and treatments don't advance in that time at all.

This underlying conditions, could have been run over by a bus crap has nothing behind it. If I died of covid next week they could say I had underlying conditions despite me being a healthy woman in my 40's because I have a thyroid condition. Would my death be less noteworthy because I had a low thyroid than if I didn't? It's ridiculous. Or they could say ah well it's not dangerous for teachers, only ones with underlying health conditions have died at our school, as if my having an underactive thyroid made it perfectly expected that I should be dead at 45.

herecomestheSon · 20/12/2020 13:23

@noelgiraffe

I would also consider that should any children or family members in those areas become seriously unwell from covid in the coming weeks, then it would be entirely reasonable to prosecute the government for their irresponsibility in opening schools in an unsafe way in the first place and then taking drastic action to prevent reasonable preventative measures by the local councils.

If the government are swayed in their choices by the prospect of legal action, maybe they should consider their liabilities in this respect?

Personally,I think it is very worthwhile to keep a diary of activities to keep track of risks.

Also, remember that it is possible to trace different strains of the virus, so it may well possible to trace whether an infection came from a particular source. e.g. an outbreak in a school.

It might even be quite therapeutic,in the event of transmission to family (which there will be) to have legal backing for the concept that the responsibility lies with the Government and its poor infection control, and not with one's family members.

TheHoneyBadger · 20/12/2020 13:25

And controversial obviously but I feel like everybody demanding schools should be open as normal with no mitigations or ppe or any protections for school staff should have to declare what their job is, how many people they have to come into contact with on a daily basis for their work and whether they have social distancing and ppe in place for their work.

If you're working from home safely and can't remember the last time you had to use public transport I'm not sure you are really in a position to judge and understand risks taken by school staff and students.

TheHoneyBadger · 20/12/2020 13:30

I'll go first:

Teacher - up to 150 teenagers (in close, prolonged contact in poorly ventilated space with no ppe) per day.

As a part timer teaching 10 different classes that's 300 11-18 year olds per week in close contact.

Itisasecret · 20/12/2020 13:38

@TheHoneyBadger

And controversial obviously but I feel like everybody demanding schools should be open as normal with no mitigations or ppe or any protections for school staff should have to declare what their job is, how many people they have to come into contact with on a daily basis for their work and whether they have social distancing and ppe in place for their work.

If you're working from home safely and can't remember the last time you had to use public transport I'm not sure you are really in a position to judge and understand risks taken by school staff and students.

Given the frequency of some posting. I would say presuming people had jobs was a stretch. Easy to shout from behind a keyboard.
NeverForgetYourDreams · 20/12/2020 13:55

Three individual cases at our school. One in year 10, 11 and 12 each. We've been very lucky so far

TheHoneyBadger · 20/12/2020 13:57

Or their job IS posting Hmm

SansaSnark · 20/12/2020 13:59

I think the point with schools is that they can go from very low cases to very high quickly due to the environment.

I live somewhere with very low cases but we had a primary shut suddenly on the last 2 days of term due to quite a few positive tests in quick succession. They had had no other detected cases all term.