Care homes: what about residents that do not consent to vaccination?

miimblemomble · 2020-12-18T06:41:25+00:00

MIL moved into a nursing home in May this year. Since then FIL hasn’t been able to be in the same room as her, never mind hold her hand. She has dementia and the lack of contact, conversation is just awful for her and for the family. She’ll be having the vaccination ASAP, and FIL is 80 so shouldn’t be far behind. But what will happen if some residents in the home do not (or their relatives do not) consent to having the vaccine? Does the whole place have to stay locked down? FIL is pinning all his hopes on the vaccination making it possible for him to visit MIL properly, and hold her hand.

Dyrne · 18/12/2020 06:48

This is such an unfortunate side affect of the lockdown - of course we want to keep people safe but without that regular face to face contact sadly so many people’s condition will have deteriorated.

I wonder if private care homes could make vaccination a condition of residency? I’m not sure if there’s precedent with requiring other vaccinations?

RoseAndRose · 18/12/2020 06:52

You'll have to ask the care home.

All have slightly different procedures

It is very unlikely that visitors will be vaccinated (unless they are also over 80, care staff or NHS staff) so they should not be allowed near other residents, and as the jab does not work in about 5% of people and it is not known how much sterilising immunity is conferred, then major changes to visiting procedures are unlikely to come soon.

But they are on the way, as transmission rates come under control

Elmo230885 · 18/12/2020 06:54

The vaccine protects the person that has had the vaccine. As far as I currently understand it can still be spread.
Obviously noone can be forced to have the vaccine so I would assume that if someone decides for themselves or others (in whatever capacity) they will have to accept that they are at risk still.
The biggest problem I forsee is people refusing to have the vaccine putting people who can't have it at risk.
Surely vaccinate FIL can visit vaccinated MIL?

ItsDinah · 18/12/2020 06:55

Doctors have general authority to treat an incapacitated person if it is in their interest. This extends to vaccinations. If the person has an Attorney authorised to make health decisions, the doctor should consult them if that is reasonable and does not cause a delay. The doctor has to fill out a certificate of capacity explaining that they have examined the person,found them to be incapable,and is undertaking treatment in their best interest. In practice, elderly dementia sufferers usually have these certificates on file before they are even admitted to a Care Home. The certificates are a form that the doctor fills out.

trulydelicious · 18/12/2020 08:02

@ItsDinah

Doctors have general authority to treat an incapacitated person if it is in their interest

But can the doctor override the decision of the relative who has Power of Attorney and has decided against vaccination? On what grounds?

@Elmo230885

Obviously noone can be forced to have the vaccine so I would assume that if someone decides for themselves or others (in whatever capacity) they will have to accept that they are at risk still

I think this is what will happen. The vaccinated residents will be protected, the unvaccinated residents will be at risk.

Currently it is not proven that these vaccines stop transmission anyway

halcyondays · 18/12/2020 08:18

Not everyone in a care home has dementia and some will still have capacity so I don’t suppose they would give it to them without consent.

MrsLebowski · 18/12/2020 08:22

I don't know but I did hear they are making tests available to allow visiting. Don't know the details but here is an article I found about it www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-tests-care-homes-visitors-christmas-b1764689.html

unebaguettepastropcuite · 18/12/2020 08:26

I would imagine that once everyone has been offered a vaccination which they have either accepted or refused, then the care homes will open their doors.
Those who refuse the vaccine will have to accept the risks that go with that decision.

ApolloandDaphne · 18/12/2020 08:31

In my FILs care home my DH was asked to give permission as he has POA. However as my FIL still has capacity he chose to go in and talk it through with him and he was able to consent for himself. I am not sore why the home didn't do this themselves as he hasn't got dementia. I don't know what would happen if neither the resident nor the family consented.

Maryann1975 · 18/12/2020 08:46

I would imagine that once everyone has been offered a vaccination which they have either accepted or refused, then the care homes will open their doors.
Those who refuse the vaccine will have to accept the risks that go with that decision
I really hope this is the case. If lockdown is to protect the most vulnerable (as it’s Statistically the medically vulnerable who are most likely to need to be hospitalised) but then the most vulnerable don’t want to protect themselves, I don’t see why everyone else should continue to suffer.

I hope your FIL is able to sit with his wife soon. I’ve Been able to make an appointment to see my grandmother For a couple of weeks time- I haven’t seen her since before lockdown due to the care home rules, I can’t imagine how hard it is for your FIL to not be able to see his wife and comfort her as he would normally be able to do.

Original poster

miimblemomble · 19/12/2020 02:22

@unebaguettepastropcuite
i would imagine that once everyone has been offered a vaccination which they have either accepted or refused, then the care homes will open their doors.
Those who refuse the vaccine will have to accept the risks that go with that decision.

Do you really think homes (and society in general) will accept that? I’ve got a feeling that as long as there are vulnerable, non-vaccinated people around, we will be expected (required) to adopt whatever measures are required to protect them. Maybe I’m wrong.

OP posts:

dewisant2020 · 19/12/2020 02:26

I'm a manager for a large nursing home, guidance is changing daily but as it stands we should be opening our doors to visitors soon.
Care homes in the U.K. have now been provided with rapid testing, we are allowing 1 visitor to visit their loved one once a week, they will be tested and if negative will need to put on gloves, apron and a mask and then they can visit their loved ones. This isn't set to change for the foreseeable future despite our home being vaccinated

Original poster

miimblemomble · 19/12/2020 09:32

@dewisant2020

What would be your approach to dealing with residents who either refuse the vaccine or whose relatives do not give consent? Will you still be expected to provide the same level of protection to them that you currently do? My MILs entire home has just gone into a 2-week lockdown (confined to rooms, no visitors) because a staff member tested positive: this is the third time this has happened since the summer.

OP posts:

ApolloandDaphne · 19/12/2020 15:56

[quote miimblemomble]@dewisant2020

What would be your approach to dealing with residents who either refuse the vaccine or whose relatives do not give consent? Will you still be expected to provide the same level of protection to them that you currently do? My MILs entire home has just gone into a 2-week lockdown (confined to rooms, no visitors) because a staff member tested positive: this is the third time this has happened since the summer.[/quote]
That has just happened in my FILs care home too.

CoolShoeshine · 19/12/2020 16:34

I’m not sure about the situation to the vaccine, I would have thought that if both parties had been vaccinated they would be allowed to meet each other, probably in a way to keep them separate to other residents, such as in an outbuilding perhaps? However some care homes do have rapid tests now for Christmas visits, I think these are the same ones that schools will be using in January so they must be pretty widespread. Hope this will bring some good news for you fil.