Child contact over Christmas-I just need to be armed with the facts

[MollyBloomYes]

Tonight my exh dropped 'casually' into conversation that he is disappointed about Christmas arrangements as it means his mum won't be able to see our children. This year is my year to have them Christmas Day, we swap on the 27th. His Mum lives about 2.5 hours away, in a tier 3 area (we are currently tier 1). These arrangements have been in place for ages, have been the pattern for years and this is the first they have been mentioned.

I can predict that this will be leading up to wanting to swap or move the handover to Boxing Day or something. I don't want to. I don't think they should be going to a tier 3 area anyway, especially as their flu vaccine has had to be cancelled at school this week and probably won't be rescheduled before the end of term (the whole school, not just my children). Added to which, his mum works in elderly care. He mentioned forming a support bubble with his mum as he will be a single parent family which I suppose technically he could but I don't know if support bubbles really count if moving across tiers or counties, including a long journey which will include a stop at a service station.

I'd rather not get into a debate about likelihood of catching covid, severity of it, morals of swapping etc etc on here. I of course have sympathy for his mum wanting to see her grandchildren however, perhaps because I work in healthcare, I see no reason why they couldn't 'do' Christmas at a later date when there is a reduced risk both for the children and for the people she works with. It's one day and it doesn't generally matter when that day is technically celebrated as far as I'm concerned (and my kids don't care, they are delighted to get two Christmases whenever they occur!) I've tried to look at gov guidance and as usual am completely confused (my single parent support bubble live 10 mins away and wfh so none of the same issues!)

Please can anyone direct me to clear, reliable guidance? There's a history of emotional abuse so I find that arming myself with concise information helps in debates with him. In the rest of my life I'm pretty good at defending my point.... Thank you.

Sorry- my apologies I missed you alternate- but still think you could adjust just for one year due to the current situation

If this is how they have done it for years I see no reason to change it now just because he wants it SHE doesn't the kids still get to see both family's I dont see why everyone is expecting OP to be kind its clear in her post he isn't

I wouldn't swap with him.

There is no reason to if she is his support bubble. They can visit anytime.

The rest of your post is irrelevant. He can make whatever plans he likes in his time. Assuming they're legal!

None of us know what the restrictions are going to be after Christmas. Who knows if we will even be allowed to see support bubbles etc. OP hasn't mentioned what time they swap on the 27th but if his Mum lives 2.5 hours away, that means she will see them for what, half a day? That's really not a lot considering OP has them for the vast majority of the travel window.

Regardless of what she wants or what he wants, what do the kids want? Do they want to be able to see grandma for a decent length of time or do they care more about "why should mum have to swap"?

It’s your turn, regardless of anything else. COVID is nothing to do with this-it’s your turn. I seriously doubt he would swap if it was his turn...

@MollyBloomYes I think most posters here are being very unfair on you. Yes its been a difficult year but presumably you were without the children last Christmas and you will be without them next Christmas so I would not give up your Christmas with them or half the time to hand them over earlier without your DH agreeing that next year is also your year to have them.

This year is my exH turn to have the kids. He lives over 200 miles away. He will be having them from 21st to 27th meaning they can't see my parents this Christmas. It sucks but covid doesn't have anything to do with it, that's the arrangement each year and I see no reason to change it this year.

It is each parents responsibility to accommodate any family contact during that parents contact time.
My exMIL is always moaning she doesn't see the kids because her son is 'too busy' to facilitate.

@MrsElijahMikaelson1

It’s your turn, regardless of anything else. COVID is nothing to do with this-it’s your turn. I seriously doubt he would swap if it was his turn...

I just think this is such a horrible attitude to have when what you're 'divvying up' isn't a piece of cake or time on the X Box, it's actual children. Both adults should be capable of putting them first but if the ex isn't that doesn't mean that OP shouldn't either.

It might be that the kids are entirely unfussed about seeing their grandmother, or would actively dislike it, which is quite different. But if they would like to it seems so horrible to not facilitate that because the adults involved must have total 'fairness'.

Should have known this would get misinterpreted. No it is not do to with fairness or pettiness or anything like that. As it happens it's nothing to do with how much my kids would like to see their grandmother, they're not arsed. In fact my youngest child isn't arsed about seeing his dad but because he's 5 he still has to because he is too young to make the decision (rightly so and I will continue to facilitate them seeing their dad until they are old enough to decide for themselves despite zero effort from their dad). He is not bothered about seeing them for any other holidays, neither is his mum. But she wants them for Christmas.

My query was about the guidance with regard to forming support bubbles when those support bubbles are 2.5 hours from each other, as well as moving from tier 1 into tier 3 to form those bubbles. That's the bit that I'm having trouble understanding the guidance on. If there's no rule against it then no, as posters have said, there's is nothing I can do to stop him and nor would I, I would just continue to point out the risks but ultimately what he does on his time with them I can't control.

Admittedly I haven't given the full story but I have bent over backwards over the years to try and encourage him to see his children. I'm certainly not trying to ruin his Christmas or make things difficult. I am however trying to eliminate the risk of travelling to a very high infection rate area for my kids. Even if his mum were to want to come to his house and stay that would be preferable. It's not about giving him 'extra' time or losing Christmas for me. It's about minimising the chances of my children getting poorly because you can bet that it'll be me taking all the unpaid leave to look after them if they do at the very least and the worst doesn't bear thinking about

The kids can travel between bubbles, they effectively don't count because they are part of both parents bubbles.
My kids will be travelling 200 miles to spend Christmas with their dad and changing tiers. It's the government legality.

So you are already doing him a big favour and being more than generous because he gets 50% of the Christmases but he doesn't do 50% care the rest of the year.

Just say you can’t change dates as you already have plans.

If they’re in school, they’re more likely to catch covid there than anywhere else.

If the kids are spending Christmas at home with just one household, then his and his mum's could be the 3 households. He could take the kids to see his mum on 27th completely within the rules.

If you're planning on seeing another household at christmas, then he and his mum could "social bubble", as he's single, to count as one household.

No need to move contact dates - 27th and 28th would be fine. They could even stay with her, or her at his.

Why wouldn't you let them?

then his and his mum's could be the 3 households.

This is completely incorrect. DC are allowed to move between parents houses. Therefore in theory they could see two additional households with mum and two additional households with dad - therefore essentially 6 households mixing with the kids but all totally legal (as it should be!).

It's irrelevant they're in different tiers or miles away. As the guidance currently stands, he would be allowed to bubble with his Mum if she's a single household. But yeah as others have said, they're far more likely to catch it in school than going to see grandma for a day or two.

Given they are in school and you have a support bubble then him having one really makes little extra risk and he’s only doing what you are.

If you weren’t socialising with others I could see the point in asking him not too but you can’t ask him to not do something when you yourself are,

Ok, so it seems that there are no restrictions on support bubbles moving across tiers or long distances. Fine. That's what I wanted to know. I'm still very uneasy about them going because, as I've said, we are a relatively low risk area and his mum is in a very very high risk area. And she works with a high risk population. So me mixing with my support bubble within the same low risk area isn't quite the same as them travelling 2.5 hours, stopping at a service station and then staying in a badly hit area. Added to which (as I mentioned), they still haven't had their flu vaccine and I do have concerns about them catching covid on top of flu. I am looking into getting them vaccinated outside of school but supplies are low.

For the last time, I didn't say I was going to stop them going. I said I was unhappy with them going. I am allowed to express unhappiness with my exh's choices, as he is with mine. I can't stop him if these choices are within the guidelines which is what I wanted to check. As they appear to be then that's that. Perhaps I am overly cautious about covid perhaps I am not. I'm simply trying to find out information to protect my children's interests. Now I have found out that information I know that I can tell my ex that I'm concerned about him taking them, would rather he didn't but if he chooses to then it is after all within the guidelines.

Thanks to those of you who understood what I was asking and didn't immediately jump to the bitter ex wife narrative.

I am allowed to express unhappiness with my exh's choices, as he is with mine

It's totally fine to do that here. What's not fine is you implying to him he's in the wrong for doing the exact same thing as you (I.e. having a support bubble).

@DunravenBadger which is exactly why I came on here to find out what the guidelines were with regards to support bubbles and moving between tiers, or support bubbles and long distances. That is what I wanted to find out so that we could talk about it with all the facts. He has a history of lying and gaslighting and emotional abuse as I said in my original post. I don't know what the rules are with regard to support bubbles in these circumstances because up till now he has never bothered to form one with his mum. That is how much he and his mum are bothered about her seeing the kids outside of 'big ticket' Christmas time. He works term time only and didn't see them the entire summer holidays, or arrange to meet up with his mum, because at that point decided covid was too risky. The summer holidays when case numbers were much lower than they are now.
I wasn't sure if the rules were different to my situation where my support bubble is within the same tier and ten minutes up the road (and not actually used for socialising but for school pick ups but thanks to whoever assumed. My children and I will be spending Christmas Day on our own). So yes, I did want to make sure I knew all the correct information before engaging in a discussion with him. I will be clear with him that I am not telling him what to do on his time with his children; I have never told him what to do. But I can and will express concern and wanted to make sure that if this sort of travel WAS against the guidelines that I could bring that up. As it is not then I won't. That is all I wanted to know.

Just tell him it’s your turn this year, dates have been agreed and you are not changing them, and reiterate every time he starts

Regardless of rules the risks are exactly the same. So loving grandma working and living in a tier 3 area is happy to put you and kids at risk who are living in tier 1 and unlikely to catch it otherwise. Might it be that he just doesn’t want to be alone with them, he’d rather have help entertaining them?

I get your concerns and you should stick to your plans. Take plenty of vitamins and hopefully you won’t catch anything or get ill if you do!

Ps I’ve seen what elderly care in tier 3 can be like and i am positive for COVID.. anyone thinking the kids are more likely to catch it in tier 1 at school than from someone working in care in tier 3 is a bit clueless!
I’m actually shocked at people reading so much into what you are saying that isn’t actually there, next time I’d recommend having more confidence in yourself and your decision making rather than sifting through totally unhelpful posts to get to ones of support and genuine help!

Google the guidelines on the gov website...

@MollyBloomYes - you wanted info and got it. You're fine, don't take people's comments to heart and have a good Christmas.

@MollyBloomYes - on flu vaccination I know our borough is running flu vaccine clinics for children ( because so many missed the in school fire to isolation etc). Apologies if you already have but might be worth asking school/checking if GP knows. It was only announced 2 days ago here.

Also just to say you have my sympathies. We all have our own level of what ‘risk’ we feel comfortable with. Whilst I’m not saying it’s on a par with people who have to go out and work and therefore have no choice at all, it’s still difficult having to accept an ex’s level of ‘risk’ over which you have no say/influence.