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Oxford

64 replies

wildbarnet · 08/12/2020 16:12

Vaccine 70% I could cry is this good or bad ?

OP posts:
notevenat20 · 08/12/2020 19:22

@StatisticalSense

Was it this vaccine? www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/men-acwy-vaccine/

tobee · 08/12/2020 19:54

"Interested to see what the experts make of it."

Obviously The Lancet aren't experts at all Hmm

Didyousaynutella · 08/12/2020 19:58

I would rather have the Oxford one. It uses a tried and trusted type of vaccine.
The other two are very new in terms of the type of vaccine. I will prob have to have one of them though as I am frontline nhs.
My kids will not be having anything other than the Oxford one, if it ever gets that far down the line.

tobee · 08/12/2020 20:00

I'll have what ever one I'm given! And happily!

Quartz2208 · 08/12/2020 20:02

I assume Forblueskies is looking at

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32623-4/fulltext?rss=yes

The age thing is interesting though I suspect not as much of a problem as one assumes the Pfizer vaccine will go to the 70+ and the Oxford will go to the age of the people it was tested against

bailey999 · 08/12/2020 20:02

There were 10 people hospitalised in the control arm (2 severely ill) with 0 in the vaccinated group.

notevenat20 · 08/12/2020 20:21

Is there any similar data available for the Pfizer vaccine? E.g. the age of people in the trial etc

RedRiverShore · 08/12/2020 20:36

@Didyousaynutella

I would rather have the Oxford one. It uses a tried and trusted type of vaccine. The other two are very new in terms of the type of vaccine. I will prob have to have one of them though as I am frontline nhs. My kids will not be having anything other than the Oxford one, if it ever gets that far down the line.
Me too, I guess I will most likely get that one anyway being in the 60 plus group, there are a fair few to go before my turn.
FuzzyPuffling · 08/12/2020 20:41

Thanks Quartz. I've just had a read of that.

JS87 · 08/12/2020 20:59

@ForBlueSkies

Only 46% efficacy when non-standard symptoms (like gastro) and asymptomatic cases are included.

Also only 2 severe cases in the control arm, so can we really be sure it protects from severe disease?

The age profile is surprisingly low overall and there is a preponderance of women (who tend to get less severe covid).

Interested to see what the experts make of it.

I think Pfizer and moderna only counted symptomatic cases so their efficacy may also be less if they had tested regularly for asymptomatic cases.
notevenat20 · 08/12/2020 21:04

I think Pfizer and moderna only counted symptomatic cases so their efficacy may also be less if they had tested regularly for asymptomatic cases.

I would love to see a proper analysis of this. It looks very important.

JS87 · 08/12/2020 21:06

[quote StatisticalSense]@notevenat20
Although the use of the Meningitis vaccine (and it's known side effects) as a control put many of participating in the trial. Other than for people truly at risk of Meningitis that vaccine shouldn't be allowed anywhere near humans (as the prevalence of side effects means the benefits of the vaccine aren't worth the risk of taking it in the vast majority of cases) .[/quote]
What are the side effects of the meningitis vaccine? I can only see fairly standard vaccine side effects listed on-line.

JS87 · 08/12/2020 21:08

@notevenat20

I think Pfizer and moderna only counted symptomatic cases so their efficacy may also be less if they had tested regularly for asymptomatic cases.

I would love to see a proper analysis of this. It looks very important.

I guess they’d have to do another trial?
raviolidreaming · 08/12/2020 21:12

Other than for people truly at risk of Meningitis that vaccine shouldn't be allowed anywhere near humans

🙄

raviolidreaming · 08/12/2020 21:14

notevenat20 yes, it was the MenACWY vaccine

tobee · 08/12/2020 21:25

Believe all 3 (Pfizer, Moderna and Astra Zeneca) were required to release initial data by press release. Presumably the others will as well? Which leaves many questions unanswered.

People Wall Street have freely been criticising Astra Zeneca for this ignoring the fact there was no choice.

ForBlueSkies · 08/12/2020 21:27

@FuzzyPuffling

ForBlueSkies do you have a source for that please?
The Lancet article itself. Specifically tables 1 & 4.

I can understand setting aside the asymptomatic infections (although they are still important to understanding whether the chain of transmission can be broken) but the non-standard symptoms I’m not so sure about. Plenty of people that have the gastro form of covid have a very bad time. With those cases included (but not the asymptomatic cases) the overall efficacy is 58.3%.

Also concerned they have not provided stats on moderate side effects, given they looked quite high compared to Pfizer and Moderna in initial reports.

notevenat20 · 08/12/2020 21:29

It's pretty clear why money people are criticising the not-for-profit vaccine.

ForBlueSkies · 08/12/2020 21:48

@notevenat20

It's pretty clear why money people are criticising the not-for-profit vaccine.
It’s not not-for-profit. It is sold at “cost” for as little as seven months. Oxford/AZ get to define when they start charging and my understanding is that even the “at cost” bit is opaque and allows them to make some profit.

See:

AstraZeneca vaccine document shows limit of no-profit pledge. Company has right under contract to declare pandemic over by July 2021

Public health experts say many of the vaccine deals, including those involving AstraZeneca, are shrouded in secrecy, offering little room for scrutiny.

Manuel Martin, medical innovation and access policy adviser at Médecins Sans Frontières, said the terms of the Fiocruz MoU gave AstraZeneca “an unacceptable level of control over a vaccine developed through public funds”. “Relying on voluntary measures by pharmaceutical corporations to ensure access is a mistake with fatal consequences,” he said.

AstraZeneca has received large amounts of public money to develop its vaccine and secure forward orders, including at least $1bn from the US.

www.ft.com/content/c474f9e1-8807-4e57-9c79-6f4af145b686

And from Sky:

Should the disease recede and the vaccine become an annual defence against COVID-19 sold at a profit, Professor Gilbert, her close colleagues, the university, and a range of private and corporate investors - including Google's parent company Alphabet - all stand to benefit.

ForBlueSkies · 08/12/2020 22:04

Just reading the Lancet article in more detail and it seems these stats are only based on 11,636 participants (inc controls) not the 23,000 described in earlier media reports. It’s the GB and Brazil arms only.

This makes it just 25% of the size of the Pfizer trial.

Quartz2208 · 08/12/2020 22:13

Forblueskies why do you dislike the oxford vaccine so much - do the Bells Palsy reports of the Pfizer bother you so much?

I just wonder as it seems you really have an issue with it and I cant quite get why?

If the vulnerable get Pfizer what issue will aymptomatic have for those of us who are likely to get Oxford (geniune question)

ForBlueSkies · 08/12/2020 22:24

@Quartz2208

Forblueskies why do you dislike the oxford vaccine so much - do the Bells Palsy reports of the Pfizer bother you so much?

I just wonder as it seems you really have an issue with it and I cant quite get why?

If the vulnerable get Pfizer what issue will aymptomatic have for those of us who are likely to get Oxford (geniune question)

I have nothing in principle against the Oxford vaccine. I had high hopes for it, But I don’t like the way they presented information in their initial press release. It was deceptive. When you scratch the surface they have obfuscated on so many things. In short, I don’t trust them. It’s also clearly an inferior vaccine based on the current statistics and I’m concerned/tired of British chauvinism leading to sub-par solutions. I believe that if the government rushes to vaccinate us all with the AZ one they may well regret it. The trial design is a mess.
ForBlueSkies · 08/12/2020 22:28

@Quartz2208

Forblueskies why do you dislike the oxford vaccine so much - do the Bells Palsy reports of the Pfizer bother you so much?

I just wonder as it seems you really have an issue with it and I cant quite get why?

If the vulnerable get Pfizer what issue will aymptomatic have for those of us who are likely to get Oxford (geniune question)

Re: your last point. There are many people under 50 who are vulnerable but not on the government’s list — undiagnosed diabetics, for example. And I know many healthy people in the their 30s and 40s struggling with long covid.
tobee · 08/12/2020 23:16

There are clearly issues of nationalism with many of the vaccines disappointingly.

It's very clear that certain sectors of the US are dissing the cheaper Astra Zeneca vaccine. Wall Street and investors are looking to make a killing. They've been criticising Oxford's vaccine for months, way before even the first data on monkeys was released months ago.

middleager · 08/12/2020 23:20

@picklemewalnuts

Did they trial it on people likely to get sever Covid? Older or obese people?
A family member trialled this. Fit 25 year old male. Not like me 🙄
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