Vitamin D for the vulnerable

[PuzzledObserver]

At first, I thought this was good news:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55108613

Then I read on, and saw they were offering a dose of 10ug. Better than nothing.... but will not be enough to bring levels up to optimal for protection against respiratory viruses.

I started taking 25ug in late February, based on watching Dr John Campbell on YouTube. In May, I had my blood levels tested - came back around 63 nmol/l, which is slightly below and adequate level. Upped my dose to 100ug and a few months later I tested at 123 nmol/l, in the optimal range.

Granted I am obese (which tends to deplete vit D levels), but I am white and spend plenty of time outdoors - and even on a 25 ug dose my levels were not adequate. 10ug is not going to be enough for these people.

The cost difference for giving a higher dose would be minimal.

I bought some back in May but then never actually started to take it. Must dig it out and start taking it!

Just to add to the confusion, I think I read somewhere that different people absorb vitamin D differently, so what works for one person might be far too much or little for someone else.

One Australian doctor (gp?) making unsupported statements is not evidence, he doesnt provide any references. There are clinical trials in the studies corner, including the one I quoted saying very high levels provide no extra benefit.

Vitamin D is fat soluble and one of the studies suggested that liquid vitamin D may be better than tablets. Personally I've had low levels and mine increased just fine on tablets. However I recommend taking them with a meal that contains a little fat. If it's a meal that includes meat with a bit of fat on it you'll also get your K2, most meat eaters wont be deficient in that.

Anyone with IBS or crohns may find they have absorption issues, if so there are sprays that allow you to absorb vitamin D through the lining of the mouth.

People with chronic kidney disease need medical advice before supplementing.

My level was #3, but Gp said they don’t prescribe anymore, so to but it. Said to buy 1000IU. Not linked to COVID, but was tested as part of a range of blood tests.

34 even!

Vitamin D Mitigates COVID-19, Say 40+ Patient Studies (listed below):

www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3872/rr-5

More collated studies:

vitamin-d-covid.shotwell.ca/
www.drdavidgrimes.com/2020/10/covid-19-and-vitamin-d-summary-of.html
c19vitamind.com/

Latest research that vitamin D both protects against and treats covid:

blog.gruffdavies.com/2020/09/28/latest-research-vitamin-d-protects-against-and-treats-covid19/

"We showed definitively that higher blood levels of the steroid pre-hormone Vitamin D helps to:

1. Reduce risk of catching coronavirus
2. Reduce the severity of the illness"

"Vitamin D Prophylaxis Can End The Pandemic. We’ve known this since March and called for action but governments and their advisory bodies appear to be asleep at the wheel, ignoring all of the science as hundreds of studies confirmed our research.

Don’t wait for them. Protect yourself now.

We recommend that all adults take 4,000 IU/day (100mcg) of cholecalciferol, or vitamin D3. It’s cheap, safe and widely available."

Everyone in the uk should be taking vitamin D in winter, no dispute about that - only the level that it is necessary to aim for. Personally I take 1000 iu but if I show any sign of coronavirus symptoms I shall double that until the symptoms subside or after a week if they disappear before that.

Care home residents probably should have been given a loading dose of twice that for a week then dropping down to the same level.

@alreadytaken

"The threshold between severe and mild covid is around 75 nmol/l and the ideal blood test range is 100 - 150 nmol/l for the prevention of both communicable and non-communicable disease. "

I've seen no evidence to support this and one study that showed no benefit above 55 nmol/l for covid.

The amount being sent out is too low for people who have almost certainly been indoors more than usual this year but unsupported statements dont help.

This.

@Muddybootsblister

I’ve been taking 2000IU per day since 2015 on the advice of my oncologist (who’s been petitioning NICE for years about how it benefits the immune system). But I still got Covid 😬

It won't prevent you getting covid. But it is likely to decrease the severity of it.

Agree that the govt recommended dose isn't enough. People are likely to take it then say it doesn't work when/if they get sick.

It seems that the dose of vitamin D may depend on body weight.
I was told to take 1000iu per 25Kg. I'm 50kg so take 2000iu a day for 6 months a year through autumn/ winter.

My level has remained consistently "optimum" for the past 4 years.

I get tested every year, via the Better You site, they include a vit D spray and advice with the result.

Medical doctor and leading vitamin D researcher Dr David Grimes commenting on the weakness of the Tameside study, that the upper threshold used was 50 nmol/l, instead of 75 nmol, which he reckons to be the watershed point between higher and lower risk of covid:

"It would not have been known in the early part of the year when this study was defined, but other studies during the pandemic have demonstrated that a blood level of >30ng/ml. >75 nmol/L marks the transition between high risk and low risk, with a rapid change, a watershed. This is shown in Figure 2. Defining 20ng/ml (30nmol/L) as "normal" (or "replete" as in the Tameside paper) is wrong as it can be seen that it is associated with a relatively high risk of death. It is is far from the ideal of >30ng/ml (75nmol/L), and it is ideal that should be the objective."

www.drdavidgrimes.com/2020/11/covid-19-vitamin-d-evidence-from.html

A lot of these posts are from people with specific hobby horses. Dr David Grimes' own website is hardly a scientific journal or necessarily reliable source, especially when he's going against a lot of the research out there and most other medical doctors...

To be fair to Dr Grimes he does link to published research. There are clinical trials, including one in the uk, looking at different levels to see what difference it makes.

A lot of people would agree that the government's current recommendation is not optimal. it's based on bone health not immunity and certainly not on covid risk.

Ok im about to reread this thread. I did a thriva test and got 49 nmol/l which states is low. Dr google says its only slightly low.

I am m.obese and terrified of covid.

Is the dlux vit d and k2 3000iu a the right amount to take daily?

Hoe do you know how much to take. Or indeed if you are taking too much!!!

Im a bit surprised im low at the end of summer.

I have had a test and after 7mths of 1000IU tablet or spray my level last week was 100. I was pleased. Might increase Dec-March to 2000IU.

If you are really worried test again in a few weeks. I upped my vitamin D a lot on 1000iu so 3000IU every day sounds excessive to me - maybe every second day would be enough.

The better you one I have is 3000.

Im worried the risk is due to the reasons why the vit d is deficient, so increasing vit d might notnsolve it...

I think I would be concerned that giving vitamin d indescriminately could cause problems with calcium if the person doesn't have an adequate balance of co-factors in their diet.
Adequate magnesium is essential in addition to K2.

Suffering who do we check this stuff with?

I've ordered a cod liver oil with magnesium, vit d 3000 with k2, and spatone.

I was thinking of messaging my doctor but not sure if its worthy of that. I don't want to go overboard but Im under the recommended amount for d3.

I have chronic fatigue and will but snake oil at this point 🙄. Which Ive not considered in the 15 years Ive had it. But covid and vit d (with obesity) has scared me.

It's such a delicate balance that I would say get as good a diet as possible. All these supplements ( though sometimes necessary) are taking a sledgehammer to something without thinking about the interplay between nutrients.
There's a circular relationship between magnesium and vit d.
Vitamin d causes magnesium to be used and can result in depleted magnesium. Magnesium is needed for vitamin d to be synthesized.
Studies have found that people who get plenty of sun and were still d deficient found d levels increased, simply by supplementing magnesium.

The thing is ancestrally, we evolved to be outside all day... farming, hunting, herding etc. Nowadays, since urbanisation and especially since the industrial revolution we are indoors... homes, offices, factories, shops etc. Hence we only get a tiny portion of vit D from sunshine we used to. It's not available AT ALL in the UK from Autumn equinox to Spring equinox (roughly, depending on latitude). Rickets was originally called the "English Disease" as it's where the industrial revolution started... people indoors suddenly plus lots of smoke stack factories belching out heavy smoke, blocking UVB from reaching skin.

Only 10% is available from diet... if you're eating a healthy diet which includes regular portions of oily fish like wild salmon, herring and mackerel.

One egg contains only 40 iu of vitamin D. 400 iu is the level required to prevent rickets/osteomalacia, and 4,000 iu is the optimum level recommended by vitamin D researchers and endocrinologists for immunological and metabolic health.

Another factor impeding vitamin D sufficiency is our fructose (and alcohol) heavy diets... both lead to fatty liver disease... the liver is a crucial organ in the metabolic processing of cholecalciferol (the precursor form of vit D in supplements, food and sun-kissed skin) to the active usable form calcifediol that gets to work in the body. If the liver has low function, that doesn't happen efficiently.

The only exception is the Inuit and other Arctic indigenous peoples who eat a traditional diet, ie mostly carnivore with lots of oily fish, seal blubber, whale, bear meat etc. Not available to those in a commerce-based economy and food system. Hence we need to top up our levels as much as possible in summer (sensibly) and take a high supplement in winter ~4000 and take a moderate supplement in summer ~2000.

In days gone by, low winter vit D levels probably didn't matter so much as pandemic infection risks were non existent as people hunkered down in small communities, with not much contact between them. Nowadays we live in a globalised economy, with huge swirlings of people mixing with international jet travel, intercontinental trade and likely seedings of emergent viruses and people and their goods rapidly move around.

Bah. I suspect thats happening to me (obese and thriva test had a weird liver result I need to include in my online dr request) .

If I'm not processing vit d (and was low normal for iron) presumably because of obesity does replacing it in suppliments work.

Im trying to overhaul my diet too.

Bah and Suffering you seem to know what youre talking about. Do you do this professionally and what do you do? (As in who do I look for for advice?) Im bright and have been using googlefu but theres as many articles warning about 3000 vit d being too much/worry about overdosing as there are for adding it/ or worries it wont make much difference if udnerlying problems stil there.

Im desperate to sort my life out but dont quite know where to turn (hence mumsnet.)

Sorry I've just realised I'm derailing the thread. Apologies all.