The bit I don't get about mixing at Christmas is...

[waltzingparrot]

Surely mixing in the same five day period with elderly/vulnerable relatives means that those that catch it and need the ICU will all need it pretty much at the same time, which is likely to overwhelm the system isn't it?

At least currently those requirements have been spread over weeks.

I do understand that older people are lonely and are happy to take the risk. My issue is that it’s all happening at once. I’d rather less restrictions over the long term than this ‘go out and eat and spend loads of money in pubs’ ‘oh hang on let’s shut all the pubs and you can’t socialise with anyone’ then ‘it’s fine for four households to meet but just for five days’.

@Delatron

I do understand that older people are lonely and are happy to take the risk. My issue is that it’s all happening at once. I’d rather less restrictions over the long term than this ‘go out and eat and spend loads of money in pubs’ ‘oh hang on let’s shut all the pubs and you can’t socialise with anyone’ then ‘it’s fine for four households to meet but just for five days’.

This. I'd like to space out seeing my 73 year old FIL from seeing my DB who works in a job where it's very hard to socially distance, and I think it's odd to deliberately construct a situation where I either see them both in five days or I may not be able to see them inside for potentially the entire winter.

@WankPuffins

I can only imagine the tantrums if I told my 86 year old dad he couldn't come and stay for Christmas. He would threaten to harm himself and make my life a misery like he did during the first lockdown (I was pregnant and had something going on which meant I was vulnerable - he was more of a risk to me as we were isolating and he was carrying on as normal).

He's back to his usual monthly long weekend visits now (bubble, no other family). As far as he's concerned he doesn't care if he catches covid. He just doesn't want to be on his own. I've got children in secondary and primary and he doesn't care, he'll keep on taking the risk.

I think a lot of older people feel the same way.

He sounds a delight . My sister has been working on Covid wards, and like a lot of her colleagues, had a really severe case of covid herself, likely due to heavy viral load from the patients she was caring for, despite ppe, many your father's age or even older.

I always wonder whether the people saying how their older relatives should be allowed to make their own choice realise that they're not just making their own choices. If they get ill, they'll (rightly) be cared for in the NHS, but that means taking up space and risking healthcare staff and/or carers it's not just themselves - when they could wait a little longer for a vaccine. I'm aching to see my vulnerable mum, but won't be seeing her in person over the holidays unless we isolate for a fortnight first.

To be honest I'm convonced that my in laws are not going to be here next Christmas so if we don't celebrate with them this year it's something we will never get back.

The decline in mil since the start of lockdown has been rapid and fil was also hospitalised in the summer. He is finding it difficult to cope with her and it's exacerbating his condition.

@OverTheRubicon he literally doesn't care about anything other than coming here. Which I do get as he has no one else.

We've explained the risks to him and that he would end up in hospital risking other and he just threatens suicide (he's not suicidal - I've had threads about him on here before and his behaviour).

I simply cannot put up with it anymore it was ruining my life.

Honestly, I think if anyone goes to see elderly or vulnerable people over christmas while also seeing other people then they arent using their brain at all. The virus isnt stopping for Christmas. By all means, see relatives that arent at risk if you want, but travelling to see your 85 year old grandmother is just silly. We have to be sensible.

For once, it's time for each family to make its own grown-up decisions based on circumstances and potential risk.

Us? Yes we will most certainly be mingling over Christmas if allowed. But we don't have any elderly/vulnerable relatives and will be mixing with other families of the same age (mid-40s + kids). So little risk.

Just be sensible, that's all.

It's setting up for disaster in January. I don't want to miss Christmas. We've already lost Easter. But I don't think it's worth the deaths it will cause.

We all lead very different lives, though, don't we? Lots of us don't have elderly relatives or large families. I've got two small family groups who I'm close to and would like to see over Christmas. The riskiest option would be bringing us all together - 3 households, including teenagers, one older person, and lots of booze. The less risky option would be visiting both separately, and doing it so that I see couple with older adult first, and then family with teenagers second. That way the main risk is to me - and I live by myself/wfh, so can be fairly sure that any infection I bought home with me didn't go any further.

It's pretty clear to me that the reason for this relaxation of the rules is that without some specific rules about meeting over Xmas there are a lot of people who would just disregard the rules completely. At least with some special Xmas rules there may be a chance to limit the damage.

I know that everyone's circumstances are different and can see that some families really need this and are being sensible. However, I am aware IRL of quite a few who are seeing it as a bit of a free for all and claiming that it's up to them to decide what risks they want to take, They don't seem to be able to see that if they take the risk to travel up and down the country visiting several large households they are not just increasing their own risk- they also increase the risk to everyone they encounter along the way (in shops/restaurants etc) and afterwards (including when they send their DC back to school).

As well as the issues with hospitals as OP has mentioned, I think we will inevitably end up with more children sent home from school to isolate in January and more risk to teachers, oh no, forgot they are immune

@Royalgiraffe

The thing is - you have to understand that not everyone is in the same situation. Mixing at christmas may seem insane to those who are going out, mixing with lots of people every single day in the run up because of their jobs etc.

But there are also many of us who are working at home, with retired parents/grandparents who are just at home. The biggest risk is from the kids going to school; but with a clear week (or more) between school finishing and christmas day, any infection the kids will bring home is very likely going to be known about by christmas day.

I completely agree that everyone needs to be cautious, but not everyone is mixing hugely in the run up to christmas; so the risk is really not blanket across the board.

I actually think that if the schools finish on Fri 18th (7 days before Christmas) children could be in the peak of asymptomatic transmission on Christmas day (as incubation period is supposedly around 5 days). We are considering seeing GP in January when its been 14 days since school closure but we will probably be in tier 3 so will be an outside walk.

We are not doing it, even though my elderly mother is pissed off and wants to see everyone. Her and my 90yo father are extremely vulnerable health-wise. If one of them were to end up in ICU or to die how could any of the rest of us live with the knowledge that one of us had passed it to them?

We've said we are all going to wait until Easter / after the vaccines and have a big family gathering when we can then. For the sake of what looks like only a few months, how is it possibly worth it???

@waltzingparrot

I know everyone will claim it's a mixed message but I honestly think it would be better if Boris stands up and says "Look people, it would be safer for society, safer your elderly relatives and better for the NHS if you don't mix at Christmas. Our advice is to stay at home. However, if you are determined to mix these are the rules....."

Exactly this. He is so weak.

@SafferUpNorth For once, it's time for each family to make its own grown-up decisions based on circumstances and potential risk.

Trouble is that what you do has consequences for others, such as the NHS, other people you (or your relatives) may pass the virus onto, etc. No one exists in a vacuum. Our actions over Christmas and New Year WILL impact other people.

If loads of elderly/vulnerable people catch it over Christmas, they'll be in hospital requiring medical care in January/February, which means other people will have their treatments/operations cancelled again and no doubt some doctors and nurses will catch covid from their patients too!

Teachers and pupils will take the virus into schools again early January causing it to spread even more.

People really need to limit their socialising and take precautions, social distance etc with those they do come into contact with.

The problem is Boris is too much of a coward to 'cancel Christmas.' Regardless of the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever for households to be mixing at the moment. But he's too much of a populist to take that call.

Make your own sensible decisions - that's what it boils down to.

Like many people, stupid special Xmas measures notwithstanding, I will be doing what is right for me and my family

Xmas is just one day. I don't think that we should be trashing all our previous hardships to "celebrate" it. I should be on the holiday of a lifetime right now and I, like many others, have been shafted and made many personal sacrifices for this fucking virus.

If it means more misery of a 3rd wave in January, Boris can stuff Xmas right up his arse.

Has the guidance around mixing at Christmas been released?
I thought in the statement yday Boris said something along the lines of we all have to be responsible and look at our own risk?
We won’t be mixing with older relatives inside regardless of the guidance because they are too vulnerable and we are too exposed. I’d assume most people would feel this way with older relatives?

@chocolatesaltyballs22

The problem is Boris is too much of a coward to 'cancel Christmas.' Regardless of the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever for households to be mixing at the moment. But he's too much of a populist to take that call.

Make your own sensible decisions - that's what it boils down to.

but what does 'cancel christmas' even mean!? How can Boris (or anyone) 'cancel' it?!!!! Its a tradition so entrenched in our society that those who dont care about breaking the rules still will regardless of what he says.

The restrictions are the maximum you can do, but you don't have to do them all. We won't be mixing with relatives, elderly or otherwise, or friends. We don't eat out. But we will have our own children home for Christmas, including the one who has already graduated but who is still young. Other people may be single and choose to spend time with friends.

We won’t be mixing - it’s not worth the anxiety and the thought of infecting relatives/overwhelmingthe nhs/a third lockdown/schools closing. We’re planning a family do in March instead.

Our trust has just cancelled all annual leave for January and started an on call roster, we know what's coming from this unfortunately

so many can't wait to mix with their elderly relatives

Something to do with elderly MIL insisting that DH should visit with the children -- and that was under Tier 2 conditions before Lockdown 2.0. She misses them. She lives far away with onery FIL. I can't blame her for badly needing some other human company, as a change, for a few days.

So its' confirmed, three households. Hopefully we don't get too many posting in the New Year their concerned about a family member or have lost a loved one to Covid.

Hello, 3rd wave with increases in deaths around end of January

I just don't understand why they are doing this with the vaccines so close...