What the heck is happening in Leige, Belgium?

[RedToothBrush]

I was reading on twitter last night (from reputable sources) that hospital staff there were being asked to continue working there even if they tested positive if they were assymptomatic because the health system was under so much pressure and days from collapse. It also detailed that they were asking the Netherlands to take patients but the Netherlands were already struggling themselves (particularly around the Hague) and were sending patients to Germany themselves.

Anyone know anymore?

As late as September we were looking at Belgium for a model for what to do.
amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/10/uk-belgium-covid-cases-curbs-england-matt-hancock-infections?__twitter_impression=true
UK looks to Belgium for Covid inspiration despite infections rise
Matt Hancock hails Belgian model amid rollout of new curbs in England – but data shows jump in new cases

Apparently the Czech Republic are sending patients abroad already and Poland are really struggling too.

Looks really grim.

(and Belgium have more ICU beds per head of population than us)

I don't know why anyone would look at Belgium as a 'model' when they've not done well at all. But then it's Matt Handcock, isn't it. He really has no idea what he's doing. From an acquaintance in Belgium:

With the young now being one of the hardest hit groups school teachers are tested positive more often, closing schools. Some universities now have their own test infrastructure in place. One by one they're going back to online schooling, though it's left up to the schools to decide for now. Events are cancelled all the way to the end of February.

It does sound grim, OP. The virus is always there and will re-emerge every time lockdown measures are lifted.

It was on our Italian news.
Mentioned ten asymptomatic doctors being asked to come in.

It's on the BBC too.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54688846

It goes to show that no country can “do well” snd has all the answers and the pandemic is far from over. Countries we considered were doing well back in the spring ( when papers were gleefully reporting UK was worst in the world) are not doing so well now but that might reverse again in a few months. Many countries certainly in Europe are muddling through it seems to me and it really is a marathon.

It's an effective illustration of why we can't just 'get back to normal and let the vulnerable people hide'.

Yes, I'm in the Netherlands and reports out of Liege haven't been good for about two weeks. They've asked for help but since the Netherlands is already sending out patients to Germany to avoid overwhelming hospitals here the Netherlands can't promise anything structurally but did commit to taking on incidental patients when necessary.

Staff at the Liege hospital have been crying out for some time now. I assume part of it is political manoeuvring whereby the situation is somewhat exaggerated (but it is definitely extremely dire) to enforce action sooner rather than later and the Belgian government has been slow to act this wave and other hospitals in other regions have not been helpful in taking on some Liege patients.

The Liege hospital have said their area is now comparable to the Northern Italy epicentre in the first wave. Staff having to work through illness/symptoms was reported a few days back, it's odd how little has been reported in the international press as it's probably the main hotspot right now. Attached is a graph of hospital admissions in Liege from a few days ago.

only a few weeks ago both Hancock and Sturgeon justified the introduction of the 10pm curfew by referencing the 'success' Belgium had from bringing in such a measure.

Perhaps this just shows that no government can really 'control' a virus. Especially not at this time of year. Viruses do what viruses do.

I do think the 10pm curfew is a good idea though now all the drama has died down.
It seems to me it goes 1. Introduce a measure 2. Everyone goes nuts 3. It’s fine and no one mentions it any more.
Look at the fuss over travel restrictions back in July/ August. Countries now go on and off the list and no one cares. The media just moves on.

I never understood the 10 pm pub thing - anybody of a certain age could tell you it leads more densely packed pubs & a concentration of drunks crowding out at one time & people drinking faster

@sashagabadon

I do think the 10pm curfew is a good idea though now all the drama has died down. It seems to me it goes 1. Introduce a measure 2. Everyone goes nuts 3. It’s fine and no one mentions it any more. Look at the fuss over travel restrictions back in July/ August. Countries now go on and off the list and no one cares. The media just moves on.

the media may mov on but my daughter has had her hours cut in the restaurant where she works because they've lost lots of business as a result of a curfew which has no scientific evidence to back it up...

anyway...

I agree it should be 11pm rather than 10om - back to the 80’s - and I get the impact on the workers but I see it as every measure lowers the r number by a bit and it is better to reduce hospitality hours and get a small r reduction but keep people employed than close completely, get a bigger r reduction but people have no job. Each measure is a balance like that I think.

only a few weeks ago both Hancock and Sturgeon justified the introduction of the 10pm curfew by referencing the 'success' Belgium had from bringing in such a measure

This is the problem with all the measures, they are (hopefully) modelled to have a particular impact, but then when they fail, they never publish how the model was wrong, publish what they've learnt from that, refined the models, provided any explanation or analysis of it at all. Just well we'll add another different restriction. The "science" of all of this appears to have no scientific rigour whatsoever.

I think reducing hospitality hours is a crock of shit as a policy. If hospitality is allowed to open they should be able to open when they want (according to their licences issued by local authorities).

The Nightingale hospitals aren't even open over here are they? We barely used them earlier in the year. Also doctors actually know how to treat Covid now.

But to be fair to the Gov of course there is no scientific study on the impact of closing pubs at 10pm in the middle of a global pandemic because how could that study have ever been done? If they had to wait for a peer reviewed longitudinal study before they implemented any measure they’d be rightly criticised for being too slow!
They have to try things, model possible affects and see effects. It does rely on compliance of the restrictions but maybe they model in 80% non compliance. Every country n Europe is watching other countries as it is hard and difficult and no one knows how exactly what will happen with every rule change.
We can all be armchair critics ( and I live with one) but imagine it being you making these decisions with conflicting advice, no real evidence as to what will really work, social media and your mp’s , constituents furious whatever you do, and it continuing relentlessly into the future.

The Nightingale hospitals aren't even open over here are they? We barely used them earlier in the year. Also doctors actually know how to treat Covid now.

Only because they don't have enough staff to run them properly I think?

Doctors are learning more about treatment all the time, which is hugely reassuring however they can't offer the best possible care if hospitals are over whelmed and staff are sick. Which is why every individual should be doing as much as they can to avoid spreading it.

The measures are shit, yes but better than catching the virus then discovering that you can't get treated 🤷‍♂️

I really feel for those places who are overwhelmed now (especially the medics who work in them) and wonder if we should be making more of them in this country to encourage people to start taking responsibility themselves.

Situation in Belgium is really worrying. Secondary schools are moving to distance learning from today ahead of an elongated half term. My dd says, after speaking with teachers yesterday they are not expecting to go back full time after. It will be either FT distance or half/half. All bars and restaurants are shut. Cinemas, museums, gyms, pools etc also. Curfew from 10. We were doing well but like UK missed the decent test and trace window. We are about 2 weeks ahead of UK so.....

@Graciebobcat

I think reducing hospitality hours is a crock of shit as a policy. If hospitality is allowed to open they should be able to open when they want (according to their licences issued by local authorities).

The Nightingale hospitals aren't even open over here are they? We barely used them earlier in the year. Also doctors actually know how to treat Covid now.

How many times will this nonsense get repeated?

The nightingales weren't used because lockdown reduced the cases in time and everyone else stayed at home so admission / accidents etc plummeted.

That (obviously) isn't the case now. Hospitals have normal inpatient numbers and rising. Covid displaces normal nhs function by a huge amount. There's not enough room for everyone and there is no staff to open the nightingales. So something has to be cut from the NHS when it hogs a trigger point. I'm in tier 1 and we've already reached that point. Some electives are stopping.

Don't compare the spring with now in the NHS. Totally different.

Its been announced that the Manchester Nightingale will be used for rehabilitation and not ICU cases going forward.

So most likely patients who maybe still will covid positive but now no longer in critical need of care.

It is not being used as icu overflow capacity from regional hospitals because the penny dropped that they cant staff it.

In other words hospitals are on their own and can only convert staff and beds as they existing facilities for in most cases.

I'm not surprised that this government managed to open a load of hospitals without having the staff to work in them.

@mumwon

I never understood the 10 pm pub thing - anybody of a certain age could tell you it leads more densely packed pubs & a concentration of drunks crowding out at one time & people drinking faster

I think it depends of where you live. I live very rurally and all the local pubs do food. It has always been the case that people will go around 7.00/7.30 and have a meal and a couple of pints/glasses of wine and are gone by 9.30/10.00 when the drinkers come in. If pubs are made to close completely then they would lose all trade, but this way they still get to do the meals and just lose out on the drinkers who tend not to be so fussed about keeping their distance. (I have been on both sides by the way).

Also, if people choose to get too close to others, drink stupid amounts and spread disease you can't blame it on the Government as we all know what the rules are.

This is the way I see it- it is a trade off. Older people tend to be ok with heading home at 10pm (although personally I prefer 11pm) and it is overall better for restaurants and pubs to be open till 10pm than not open at all.
Younger people/ students etc etc will mingle after 10pm of course but as they tend to be asymptomatic or very mild symptoms maybe it is ok if they all leave the pub together at 10pm, mingle in the street afterwards etc.

It makes sense in a way as they had a policy of changing the mask advice and 'learning to live with it' instead - this is taken from 23rd Sep. (a month ago)

www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-digest-belgium-to-scrap-face-mask-rules/a-55033830

More here as well

www.politico.eu/article/experts-question-belgiums-call-to-relax-coronavirus-rules/

The stupid thing about following Belgium's curfew idea because it seemed to work is that we only copied half of it. My understanding is that Belgium instituted a closing time and a curfew in the normal sense of the word - namely that nobody was allowed anywhere in public after the appointed hour. So they had to go home (or go on to a party that lasted until 5am) because anyone seen on the street after curfew would be arrested. We just instituted a closing time.