Government removes statement schools are not considered "high risk settings" in guidance.

[IloveJKRowling]

Reported in the TES

www.tes.com/news/Covid-dfe-cuts-schools-arent-high-risk-line-guidance

From the article:
"The government has removed a paragraph from its Covid guidance stating that schools are not considered "high risk settings".

The Department for Education (DfE) previously stated in its guidance for schools that Public Health England (PHE) and the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) advise that schools are not considered high risk work environments, and it is "therefore appropriate for teachers and other school staff to return to their workplace setting".

But following an update to the guidance today, this detail has vanished."

I am absolutely not selfish. We follow all the rules, in fact because we're sending our DC to school I am even more careful than before they started back, my DC wear masks on public transport and in shops and follow the rules. I don't remember ever thinking schools were Covid safe and anyone who thought they were going to be must have had their head in the sand. We always knew our DC would be in huge bubbles and there would be no social distancing between DC. We accept they will probably catch Covid. It's about weighing up the situation and for them being stuck at home for months and months is more of a risk to them on so many levels Vs catching Covid. I am offended that you think I am selfish.

@Spiralsand

It is lucky that the people you personally know who have had COVID have had it very mildly, but on the whole we know that if COVID spreads throughout the population as certain percentage will become seriously ill. This will overwhelm the health service, leading to poorer outcomes and access for all healthcare (COVID and non-COVID related). It's lucky that out of the small sample of people you know, no one was seriously ill. But this is not representative of the bigger picture.

But @noblegiraffe for the vast majority of people who have Covid it is very mild. Many don't even know they have it. You must of read the many threads where people are asking if they should get a test because they have a bit of a headache etc.

There's a very good argument for having material available online that isn't live (asynchronous) rather than having live streaming.

That allows more flexibility as to how you work, for both families and teachers.

This. Funnily enough, when we surveyed parents at our school, they knew best about how much time they were able to spend with their child each day and when they were best able to do it. As a result, we set work that families could manage around their own jobs and devices, a large majority of children did the work, and now they're not behind.

It would be a very different story if we'd based our entire offer on the moans of one or two parents who couldn't see that what suited them wouldn't suit the majority. There was, and is, a need for parental input to ensure learning with young primary, and it's going to have to be done when you are able to do it, whether that's mornings, weekends or in the school day. It's the same for all working parents, teachers included. Some posters here are confusing teaching, where children are challenged and move out of their comfort zone, with repetitive reinforcement and babysitting, for which there's already a vast online market which has been going for years.

@Spiralsand

But *@noblegiraffe* for the vast majority of people who have Covid it is very mild. Many don't even know they have it. You must of read the many threads where people are asking if they should get a test because they have a bit of a headache etc.

So should we not worry about the fact that the people who get it badly fill up the hospitals and stop everyone from accessing treatment? Why bother with any measures at all, if that's the case.

My sole focus in life currently is not Covid. Life has to go on despite it. DH and I go to work (we're the lucky ones who still have secure jobs for now) my DC go to school. We cannot afford not to. Any one of us could catch Covid as we're out everyday but that's life at the moment. What choice do we have?

@Barbie222 Why bother with any measures at all, if that's the case
I have already said we do bother with the measures.

@Spiralsand

Yes, lots of people will have it mildly -- but if COVID spreads unchecked we know that the proportion of people who become very ill will overwhelm the healthcare system. So if you need routine care, or if you get into a car accident, or if your child breaks an arm, you won't be able to access good care for these seemingly unrelated issues. COVID will also become more fatal, as people who might have survived COVID with treatment will not be able to access care. There is a reason every country in the world is struggling with this in one way or another. The countries that are struggling the least are not letting it spread unchecked, they are keeping the numbers very low through test/trace and containment measures. Unfortunately the effects of COVID on society are much greater than "just a cold," and even if you are no vulnerable yourself the effect this has on the wider society is unavoidable. We can't just close our eyes and hope it goes away. It will affect us all in one way another.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/covids-collateral-damage-delayed-operations-have-created-health/

@Spiralsand

Yes, you can only individually do what you can do at this point as unfortunately the measures taken by our government have let us down. So of course your family need to go to work/school and abide by the measures the best you can, as do most of us.

But you can understand why people are upset that the spread in schools seems to be left out of discussion by the government. It is having an impact on the wider spread of COVID and needs to be addressed. The fact that you know a few children who got it in school is very lucky, but the problem of the wider impact on society still exists. Equally, there are vulnerable children and staff in schools who might not be so lucky as those you knew and there is no protection in place for them.

What do you mean it came out about the unions haunted? Do you mean in the right wing press? Do you mean via various right wing posters on MN? If you,as you say, are a teacher there would be no coming out required. You would know what our unions said. And, since you didn't, that would appear to rather make your claim that unions are militant seem a bit bizarre.

@Whatshouldicallme

This is a straw man argument. Very few people that I can see are advocating ‘letting COVID rip’. Most of accept the need for measures. I fully support the rule of six, face masks where appropriate and social distancing.

What we will not support is a lockdown that would be hugely damaging to both health and the economy.

@Whatshouldicallme But you can understand why people are upset that the spread in schools seems to be left out of discussion by the government
I think if you are a vulnerable teacher or pupil it must be a very difficult situation, but the alternative (home learning) will massively disproportionately disadvantage DC and lead to all sorts of other issues in the present and long term. We absolutely know this after the shambles earlier in the year. The current situation is unfortunately making the best of this impossible situation we are in. Even with the disruption it is currently better for most than what we had then.

Who are we?

@Spiralsand

But *@noblegiraffe* for the vast majority of people who have Covid it is very mild. Many don't even know they have it. You must of read the many threads where people are asking if they should get a test because they have a bit of a headache etc.

Yes, and yet it is being taken seriously in every other area. Masks and social distancing, screens and reduced entry, workplaces being furloughed (a Tory government paying billions for people to not go to work is pretty bloody extraordinary).

Schools are the only area where people are left so exposed and are told to suck it up. Told that it’s not that risky, and that measures are disproportionate by the same people who are implementing strict measures everywhere else.

It’s fucked up.

It will not be the same as in lockdown.
For starters the DfE has started to do it's actual fucking job and issued guidelines. All they did in lockdown was suspend the curriculum then sit twiddling their thumbs issuing wildly contradictory advice that kept being surreptitiously updated and changed without telling anyone. Helpful.
Schools have had time to plan
The situation at the moment is becoming increasingly chaotic due to pupils being in/out/in/out and rampant unchecked transmission.
Remember the scandal about no PPE for care homes etc early on?
Schools are forbidden masks in lessons. Pupils may not be as vulnerable as care home residents (although some are) but they will be asymptomatically spreading the virus to the wider community and more vulnerable.
Remember when Hancock said to not kill granny? Having absolutely no effective mitigations in school is doing exactly that. The government is ignoring all the WHO recommendations on safe schools reopening. Remember when they did that about testing and tracing? Same old mistakes and cock ups. Same disastrous results.

@noblegiraffe I agree. It's impossible. Never have I had more respect for my DCs teachers than currently.

Noble did you see how many of the Tory MPs who voted against funding FSM voted by proxy so that parliament could be 'covid safe'??

And of the remote learning doe not work, it may well be , in part, to do with this:
schoolsweek.co.uk/100k-more-laptops-for-schools-but-access-is-slashed/

I know, Piggy, they are despicable.

Tories don’t give a shit about kids or their education.

@noblegiraffe totally agree. Visit to the dentist this week involved being bundled out of the back door with a mouth full of gauze and blood. Advised to keep it in for 15 mins to stem the bleeding but not allowed to stay on the dentists premises at all as it’s too risky in terms of Covid. We’re locked in at the bank (2 customers only allowed on the premises at a time) to limit numbers. At the vets we must be masked and hand over our pet as it’s too risky to enter the premises at all. However we’re allowed to go unmasked all day in school with classes of 30 pupils, actively encouraged to do small group work with children around us, sit next to children to live mark and read and close the windows when children get cold. Parents can also speak to staff after school with no masks and go inside the school office (I’ve seen people in there for more than 15 mins at a time) completely unmasked. It’s un fathomable.

It's the detrimental effect on millions of DC that is the massive problem. Even if home learning was better this time many DC will not (because they cba) or won't be able to log on. They'll be huge disadvantage. Plus the demotivation of those that do log on. This was the problem for us last time. My dc did the work but became more and more demotivated as time went on. Learning on your own at 13 and 15 is boring. I also hadn't noticed how badly withdrawn they'd become until back with their peers. To thrust all this onto them again is really worrying and my DC are the lucky ones with good access to computers, great teachers and back up at home. For a virus which won't have an impact on them and they take happily precautions when out and about not to spread.

It's the detrimental effect on millions of DC that is the massive problem

Which is why we need better mitigation measures in schools to make them safer and keep them open for longer.

The Us4Them crowd who were arguing for no mitigation measures in schools because kids might be uncomfortable with them should be devastated with the much more serious consequences of that approach.

@WhyNotMe40

You’re right that it won’t be the same as lockdown. Because schools will not be closing this time.

Even Nicola Sturgeon who I usually do not agree with was very clear yesterday that all schools will be remaining open on a full time basis as it is in the best interests of DC and society.

I suspect that if the unions has been less obstinate towards online learning during lockdown, there may have been more flexibility. But we allow another situation where most DC learn nothing for 6 months, so that ship has well and truly sailed.

FFS Ecosse you do talk some shit. Once again, the unions had nothing against online learning during lockdown. That you think they did just shows you fell for the government propaganda.
Also. Once again. Absolutely noone is calling for schools to close.
What would be good would be week in/week out blended learning to reduce over crowo in schools - which will not result in students CBA or getting demoralised as their teachers will be on their backs the next week if they do.
Also masks. Masks would be good. Like everywhere else... Echos do t have magic Covid repellent walls you know.

Schools don't have

@Ecosse

Erm, speaking of "straw man arguments," who said lockdown forever is the only alternative? Or that schools needs to be either open as per the current guidelines or shut entirely? As you've pointed out, there is a middle ground.

We currently have the rule of six in place, SD in most areas (except schools), and face masks where SD is not possible (except in schools). Cases are still increasing rapidly and are set to overwhelm our healthcare system if nothing else is put in place. So unfortunately this suggests that the current measures are not enough.

I would suggest that conditions in schools, where none of the measures that you advocate are in place, are an obvious contribution to the problem. Do you really believe we can allow schools to continue as they are and manage to contain the spread to manageable levels so that the NHS is able to consistently provide treatment for both COVID and non-COVID related conditions to everyone who needs it?