Pupils sent home in half of England's secondary schools

[herecomesthsun]

...which are of course supposed to be covid secure. Nice that the BBC is covering it,though.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-54614111

I remain utterly unconvinced that the 2m rule has any relevance when you're sitting in the same small room for an hour without masks, though

It doesn't. www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3223
Scrolling down in this paper you reach a diagram. It indicates that it is high risk to be in a high occupancy, indoor environment without facemasks for a prolonged time even when silent.

"Rules on distancing should reflect the multiple factors that affect risk, including ventilation, occupancy, and exposure time"

None of which has happened in schools.

Frankly, in my opinion, if a positive case is found in a school, any child or teacher who has occupied a classroom with that child for a full class (or anything over 15min) without a mask should be a contact and should isolate.

Ice cream I've been astonished by the difference in interpretation within schools over so much covid guidance even from one slt to the next!

Yep, I agree with this. Our head told us children would be required to wear masks in communal areas before it became mandatory and she said that pupils and teachers would be supported to wear masks in lessons if they wished to whereas some teachers on here seem to have been told they aren't allowed to. She's always made it clear to us that every school is different and she will do what is best for ours even if it seems strict compared to others. But it has meant we've only had one reported case in 1000 kids all half term in a town that has an average infection rate.

I wonder if it's these different approaches that have led to a lot of the teacher/parent conflict on MN.

Just saw that the Children's Commisioner has written to MPs saying schools should stop sending entire year groups home if there is only one case www.thesun.co.uk/news/12991728/covid-schools-cases-pupils-home-childrens-commissioner/

whereas some teachers on here seem to have been told they aren't allowed to.

There are a small number of teachers on MN who seem consistently to interpret a lack of instruction to do something as an instruction not to do something. It is at the very least an interesting psychological phenomenon.

Thanks IloveJKR, I remember seeing that diagram a few months ago. It will be interesting to see if there are any more cases in that year group because of this. DH says there's around 30 kids been told not to attend and self isolate.

@IloveJKRowling

I remain utterly unconvinced that the 2m rule has any relevance when you're sitting in the same small room for an hour without masks, though

It doesn't. www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3223
Scrolling down in this paper you reach a diagram. It indicates that it is high risk to be in a high occupancy, indoor environment without facemasks for a prolonged time even when silent.

"Rules on distancing should reflect the multiple factors that affect risk, including ventilation, occupancy, and exposure time"

None of which has happened in schools.

Frankly, in my opinion, if a positive case is found in a school, any child or teacher who has occupied a classroom with that child for a full class (or anything over 15min) without a mask should be a contact and should isolate.

I agree. And I am furious about what has happened in my dd’s year 8 class. Positive case, child was in school early this week, positive results two days later. Only those sat on the surrounding desks have been told to isolate. My dd was one desk further away (so 2m) in one class for an hour. Then she walked to next class and sat 2m away from same child for another hour. So Apparently, the length of time spent in a classroom has no impact on the risk, only if you were sat immediately next to them. Bonkers.

My son’s former secondary school (I’ve deregistered him but I’m still getting letters) currently have 400 pupils self isolating out of just over 1,200. There have been multiple cases, including staff members. The amount of people said to me that deregistering him in year 10 was “disruptive” to his education... failing to see how him doing work every day at home is any more disruptive than what is occurring in the school at the minute!

Our primary has 4 years off because of contact with positive cases. It would be interesting to know whether this is because of multiple cases from different households, or 1 or 2 members of staff who have been in contact with multiple classes or it could be 1 large family with DCs in multiple year groups who have all tested positive. Of course they can't tell us but it would be useful to know. Either way I know the school is not particularly covid secure, the whole of ks1 is one bubble. Tbf I was thrilled that my DD in year 1 was still learning through play and on the carpet rather than desks etc but now I'm regretting being so happy about it because she has to isolate for most of half term

I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't always cases that meet the narrow 3 symptom criteria from one tested positive child because children are often asymptomatic or differently symptomatic.

We don't know numbers because they're not testing asymptomatic / differently symptomatic contacts as a general rule.

We do know, when tested (e.g. at Eton) large numbers of asymptomatic positives among children show up.

We know asymptomatic spread is a problem with covid.

WE know viral load is a problem with severity of disease for covid.

WE know indoor, crowded environments with no masks for long periods are the most dangerous for transmission.

This means schools, as they are, especially if not isolating whole classes who've been in contact with known positive, are unsafe environments for teachers (and probably, some children too).

Frankly, in my opinion, if a positive case is found in a school, any child or teacher who has occupied a classroom with that child for a full class (or anything over 15min) without a mask should be a contact and should isolate. This is not just your opinion, a massive weight of evidence agrees with you! Particularly as length of time is another big factor - and children spend 6 hours plus in that classroom.

It is one of the highest risk environments there is.

@mynephewR They could and should tell you. It is good practise and doesn’t breach confidentiality. If it is 4 years off that is likely to be several positive cases.

Wow 400 pupils! Especially as the guidance is very conservative at defining contacts, this is likely to be several cases again. So people saying that ‘50% of schools having someone isolating’ is low because it’s likely to be just one contact...

...are hugely underestimating. Which is why we need thorough analysis at a higher level, and for this to be transparent. All we’ve had is bitty data that ‘cannot be compared’ as they keep changing the goalposts.

And data that feels more like propaganda e.g. the mass testing of schools to find the positive rate. This didn’t show high rates. This is fine but it needed to be done every single week to be at all useful, as we know that exponentially this could and will change dramatically.

If the evidence that schools are relatively low risk when community transmission is low. Then a one off mass testing when community transmission is low will not tell us anything about what happens when community transmission is high. Which happens quickly and is the case for half of the UK now.

Our entire secondary is currently closed and everyone (approx 1500 students, plus all staff) told mandatory isolation for 14 days. And we're not even in a high tier area.

@notevenat20

whereas some teachers on here seem to have been told they aren't allowed to.

There are a small number of teachers on MN who seem consistently to interpret a lack of instruction to do something as an instruction not to do something. It is at the very least an interesting psychological phenomenon.

We have absolutely explicitly, and in writing, been instructed not to wear masks in school.

The ONLY occasion we may wear any PPE at all is when we have close contact with a child who is in isolation ready to be sent home with obvious Covid symptoms (and as it turns out, the Head does not believe this includes a continuous cough 'as it's probably just a cold'). Otherwise, we have been very specifically told we must not wear any, and nor may the children.

I agree I think that somehow there is an underlying message that masks impede learning. This is an untested theory but it has been taken as fact.

thehouse
Ice cream I've been astonished by the difference in interpretation within schools over so much covid guidance even from one slt to the next

It isn't a 'school interpretation', I've worked repeatedly with schools with positive cases. PHE use the guidance to inform the school of what it must do...not the school.

PHE are doing this for every school, based on a range of factors when advising.

@IceCreamSummer20

I agree I think that somehow there is an underlying message that masks impede learning. This is an untested theory but it has been taken as fact.

It’s not an underlying message, it’s written in the government guidance on the re-opening of schools.

That part of the guidance about mask wearing should have been called out. It’s very frustrating!

Mask wearing is one of the rare things that we can do, without shutting things down, without economic or educational cost, which actually does have a significant effect in reducing the transmission. Why would we then shut that down with no evidence that it impedes learning?! Asian children who wear masks all day and their teachers have not had their education reduced by it. Grrrr....

I'd think mask wearing would improve education overall by ensuring there is less time off sick for all students and teachers.

I read something somewhere about how the impact of other respiratory diseases was reduced - hence kids spent more time in school.

I know we generally send them in sick here anyway, but surely you actually learn more if feeling well?

No sendings gone on our secondary in Surrey. None. At all.

Nor any of my friends with children in any of the local schools. No one I know in RL has a child at home.

As far as I can tell there is no evidence, no evidence at all, that masks impede learning and no effort to quantify the benefits to education and learning that they provide (less time off school, lower community levels of covid, less disruption from continuous isolation).

I'd be very surprised if the costs outweighed the benefits.

So the government has failed to have evidence-based policy on this and just based an entire strategy on 'what they reckon' without any attempt to look at the many countries where children and teachers wear masks all the time and the benefits of doing so.

@Oblomov20

No sendings gone on our secondary in Surrey. None. At all.

Nor any of my friends with children in any of the local schools. No one I know in RL has a child at home.

In our low area in Surrey ds has half his year home, there's also 25% of the 6th form and a class in year 8. Three members of staff are also positive. One of the other secondaries has children off-I met them in town yesterday Out if the three primaries I know anyone at, all have at least one class out.

Yet someone said to me this week no local school have any children out.

On the upside the secondary has been told they should get more of the promised laptops coming shortly. They were initially given 9. That's 9 for a school of around 2000. They got those end of June, far too late to help those who needed them really.

At our local infant school there are now 6 out of 9 classes at home isolating - most will now have to spend most, or all of, half term in isolation too.

9 positive cases across the school - all class based adults, all year group bubbles now affected.
A number of parents in the affected classes are positive cases too.
No child yet tested positive - very few been tested though as don't have the big 3 symptoms that would warrant testing.

Our secondary of nearly 3000 had one case (a teacher) last week and two pupils this week. Only close contacts sent home.