Tier 2 - playdates

[pontypridd]

In a Tier 2 area:

If kids are with each other all day at school, in the same class etc

Can they play at each others houses?

If not, why not?

Discuss.

No because the rule is no households mixing indoors.

Because that's the law.

From an if it's evidenced perspective, there are possible hypothesises that could make it a reasonable restriction:

• Playdate Child could transmit to adult carer of their child - ie it's an extra contact.
• Adult carer could transmit to their child - ie it's an extra contact especially relevant if the evidence that adult transmission is higher than child.

Of course, no evidence is provided for any of the restrictions, so will never know. Just meet up in the park.

If the rule was: when your child has Covid they must be sent to the hospital away from their family until they test negative (this is what they do in China according to a mumsnetter) -

Would you obey? @BeingATwatItsABingThing

No they can't. Presumably because it extends the time they are in close contact and they will also be mixing with family members. We haven't been allowed playdates for weeks now. It sucks. The measures so far haven't been enough to stop infections soaring here.

They could make all sorts of things the law @sirfredfredgeorge and in fact are now doing ...

Will you follow anything blindly (without evidence, as you say)?

Well yes, you need to complain about the right thing - the lack of evidence provided for the laws - there may be the evidence, neither you or I are equipped to know if there is or not. Just complain about the correct thing, the lack of evidence for the laws that are being made.

My compliance with this particular law is not relevant to my personal circumstances, so I don't know, I certainly wouldn't criticise anyone else for choosing to, and would probably even chuck a few quid into a crowdfund to defend a case - but I don't expect any cases to ever be brought, it's not going to be a "crime" committed by the sort of people the police do anything but "advise".

no, the rule is a bit of a blunt instrument, but it is there for a reason.

I would say that there is more likely to be physical contact between the 2 at a playdate.
The visiting child has direct contact with another adult, and possibly another sibling, so that is an increase of risk of transmission.
The visiting child touches all the things ni the house, so increases chance of transmission.

I know, small chances, small increases, but every little increase of transmission is an increase.

@pontypridd

If the rule was: when your child has Covid they must be sent to the hospital away from their family until they test negative (this is what they do in China according to a mumsnetter) -

Would you obey? @BeingATwatItsABingThing

It’s not that long ago that’s exactly what we did during outbreaks of diseases, TB sanatoriums, polio... these are within living memory. It’s basic infection control; isolate the contagion. I’d hate it but I do see the sense in isolating people away from their families. It’s not even an option here for those who would otherwise be willing.

What does it take for you to follow a rule for the good of society? Multiple research papers and studies with concrete evidence? Hate to break it to you precious but this is a live situation, there simply isn’t time to sit you down and reassure your paranoia.

Maybe restrictions won’t work, but they’re based on the best information we have available right now. If that changes so be it, we’ve learnt something new.

@pontypridd

If the rule was: when your child has Covid they must be sent to the hospital away from their family until they test negative (this is what they do in China according to a mumsnetter) -

Would you obey? @BeingATwatItsABingThing

Don't you remember the 12 year old boy who died alone in hospital in March? Parents not allowed to visit?

What does it take for you to follow a rule for the good of society? Multiple research papers and studies with concrete evidence?

Well I'd like a bit of evidence. Yes, please. Otherwise they can throw anything at us and expect us, like sheep, to follow.

I'd also like the Track and trace to not be forgotten and to start working.

Yes - sorry, I do now @steppemum

I couldn't do that. And wouldn't.

We've just been moved into tier 2. I'm cancelling DS's playdate on Saturday. No, it makes no sense to me and it's shit cos he's an only child but if this is what it takes to keep school open and businesses open then I'll do it.

No they can't play at each other's houses as households cannot mix in tier 2, as you obviously know. No discussion because those are the rules, irrespective of whether you agree with them.

@pontypridd

If the rule was: when your child has Covid they must be sent to the hospital away from their family until they test negative (this is what they do in China according to a mumsnetter) -

Would you obey? @BeingATwatItsABingThing

But that’s not the rule you’re talking about. The two are not comparable at all.

I would follow the rule of no play dates if we were in a Tier 2 place (we’re not) but I would really struggle to send either of my DDs to the hospital on their own. If it was that or they die though, I would even though it would break my heart.

It's not difficult, we need to avoid unnecessary social contacts right now to suppress the spread of cases. Schools = necessary and a priority, play dates = not a priority. If we all do our bit we have some hope of keeping schools open and maybe a hope of a semi normal Christmas. If we all continue to find loopholes and make spurious excuses about why we shouldn't be inconvenienced then this is just going to get worse.

It sucks I know, I'm massively pissed off at the inconsistencies of The Rules. It's nonsensical to have bubbles at school but then after school they can go to swimming lessons with a bunch of other kids from different schools and then do 4 more after school lessons/childminder club the other 4 days as well with 4 different sets of kids each time. All this they can do - playdates? Nah

No but you can meet at the park and play there.

You shouldn’t but where we are I think people are doing it

@pontypridd

What does it take for you to follow a rule for the good of society? Multiple research papers and studies with concrete evidence?

Well I'd like a bit of evidence. Yes, please. Otherwise they can throw anything at us and expect us, like sheep, to follow.

I'd also like the Track and trace to not be forgotten and to start working.

And how do you propose that research and evidence is gathered if not over time? It’s simply not realistic to expect concrete answers when dealing with a complete unknown. Covid-19 hasn’t even been in known existence for a year yet, what has been gathered and made sense of is utterly phenomenal and never seen before in human history but we haven’t had time to make concrete statements. We have to be flexible.

Track and trace we can agree on - it’s an utter embarrassment that would be funny if not so essential.

SD applies to children as well as adults in England so outdoors only keeping 2m between them is allowed.

Many aren’t bothering SD though etc hence cases rising.

It does make sense. If child A gave it to your son at school, there's a good chance it would be caught by testing/track and trace before he gives it to you. You would still probably catch it, but at least you would be isolating. If child A came to your house, he would give it to all your family at the same time. By the time it was picked up you could have spread it to a whole load more people at work. It's about slowing the chain of transmission so that people are isolating before they become infectious.

Two children all day in the same class will not be in close contact with each other the whole time. They may not even be in close contact any of the time. On a play date they will likely be in close contact all of the time.

At school, they consider ventilation and minimising contacts and they wipe down surfaces regularly. The average person does not do either of these things in their house.
If you meet someone 10 times you have less chance of contracting the virus then if you meet them 11 times. Yes, it's a statistically small extra probability, but if you multiply it up to a country level, it suddenly starts to make a difference.

“If the rule was: when your child has Covid they must be sent to the hospital away from their family until they test negative (this is what they do in China according to a mumsnetter)“

No. The risk of long term emotional harm to my children would be too much. The loss of indoor play dates, when they can socialise outdoors and at school, is utterly trivial in comparison. Fairly obviously there are additional risks to them going to each other’s houses (being close to siblings and other adults, using toilets, hand towels etc). I sympathise hugely with people who break rules to alleviate actual suffering or to keep their financial head above water but simply meeting their friend at the playground or at school or over Zoom is really not suffering (unless there’s some huge unsaid backstory about mental health or similar).

It's not sensible, most of this isn't, but it is the law.
You could meet up in a park, I suppose and be within the law.

No because its not allowed.

End of discussion really.