Anti Lockdown Thread/Lockdown Sceptic Thread

[SussexDeb]

I am hoping to start a thread for those of us out there who don’t want or believe lockdowns are the solution to the pandemic.

I am one of many people who think the harm lockdowns do massively outweigh the benefits we get from them. This is both on the impact on society and the economy.

I wanted to make a thread for those of us who do not want a second lockdown and wish for different strategies to manage the pandemic such as Herd Immunity and protecting the vulnerable.

I also want this to be a non judgemental thread. Where those of us against the lockdowns can vent without being called selfish or a ‘granny killer’ or any of the other names used for those of us who question the narrative.

How can you sort out test and trace if it isn't even a legal requirement to have test and trace in the first place! I know plenty of people who haven't downloaded the app.

What happens when The Vulnerable™ are allowed out again? They won't have developed the appropriate t cells so it will be just as dangerous for them as it is now.

What do the vulnerable do about avoiding other contagious diseases endemic in the population? I know we have a flu vaccine but it's 50% effective on a good year.
We did not shut down in winter 17/18 when the flu vaccine failed. The vulnerable presumably had to take their chances then.

These measures are going to have an economic impact that kills millions (more) through poverty. You're basically choosing which lives you value more. It's not a case of saving lives vs not.

Sorry but the evidence suggests that the choice is saving both lives and economy or saving neither

Also, T cells might confer immunity, in which case if enough people had had the infection there would be very low levels circulating and it would be considerably safer for older and more vulnerable people.

So far, re-infections seem to be a relatively rare event, at least in the timescales we've been dealing with this.

Sorry but the evidence suggests that the choice is saving both lives and economy or saving neither

No. Maybe in the developed world where many people have a level of financial resiliance, the economies themselves are more resilient and governments are more able to provide financial assistance.

This is not the case in poorer countries. People have been starving from pretty much day one in poorer places that attempted lockdowns.

Over five million children die globally each year from the effects of poverty. This is every bit as real as the covid deaths. The WHO itself has said that lockdowns will likely double global poverty so the next few years will see a really tragic toll.

But as ever, it will barely make the news in the UK so we won't have to worry about it.

@fishywaters

How can you sort out test and trace if it isn't even a legal requirement to have test and trace in the first place! I know plenty of people who haven't downloaded the app.

Test and trace is not synonymous with the app. The app is a useful additional tool, that's all.

The way to sort out test and trace is to ensure that everyone has prompt access to a test when they need it, that results are returned quickly, that a high proportion of contacts are traced quickly and that both those who test positive and their contacts are properly supported - financially and practically - to isolate.

You also need to make sure people trust the system enough to comply with it. Really at this point the whole thing needs handing over to local authorities.

@MaxNormal

What happens when The Vulnerable™ are allowed out again? They won't have developed the appropriate t cells so it will be just as dangerous for them as it is now.

What do the vulnerable do about avoiding other contagious diseases endemic in the population? I know we have a flu vaccine but it's 50% effective on a good year.
We did not shut down in winter 17/18 when the flu vaccine failed. The vulnerable presumably had to take their chances then.

These measures are going to have an economic impact that kills millions (more) through poverty. You're basically choosing which lives you value more. It's not a case of saving lives vs not.

Do you think we should just let it sweep through AND not shield the vulnerable then? There doesn't seem much point protecting them at all if they're still at high risk after it's swept through. That seems quite an extreme position even compared with the GBD. Maybe I've misunderstood.

Also you seem to have confused me with those who favour lockdowns.

I wouldn't enforce shielding but I would attempt to facilitate it.
It makes no sense to be threatening families with a shielding member with school fines or forcing people into work and not protecting their jobs, if they feel safer not doing these things.
Hopefully this might reflect in lower hospital admissions and certainly less fear, while still giving everyone choice.

No I definitely personally think we should shield the vulnerable, although I appreciate that didn't come across in my response. By shield I mean ensure that anyone clinically at risk who wishes to shield is given the economic support to keep themselves safe, ie if they usually work full-time they would continue to receive their salary.

As Thanksitsgotpockets says, facilitation not enforcement.

I'm another anti lockdown. The effect on mental health, jobs, poverty etc is massive. I'm getting increasingly depressed by the incompetence of the government so don't think they will get testing working.

The vulnerable should shield and the rest get on with it - for the young, in the main, everyone agrees it's mild. We are destroying lives with lockdown. I'm asthmatic with a history of chest infections so not in the 'it will be mild' category at all.

@MaxNormal

What happens when The Vulnerable™ are allowed out again? They won't have developed the appropriate t cells so it will be just as dangerous for them as it is now.

What do the vulnerable do about avoiding other contagious diseases endemic in the population? I know we have a flu vaccine but it's 50% effective on a good year.
We did not shut down in winter 17/18 when the flu vaccine failed. The vulnerable presumably had to take their chances then.

These measures are going to have an economic impact that kills millions (more) through poverty. You're basically choosing which lives you value more. It's not a case of saving lives vs not.

And abandoning cancer patients as well.

I'm against Lockdowns. Isn't everyone?!

They're only inevitable if you don't have a fit for purpose Test and Trace system.

We know this because countries with decent test and trace don't need lockdowns.

Great Barrington is just bullshit. I'm not even engaging.

I think people need to realise that ever changing levels of Lockdown seem to be this governments long term plan.

So we're looking at a couple more years of this at least without an adequate TTI system.

And they won't be able to deny forever that schools (senior schools at least) are serious drivers of covid spread.

So if you want to be constructive why not write to your MP and ask them why we don't have a functional TTI system and what's the long term plan for schools?

I think people need to realise that ever changing levels of Lockdown seem to be this governments long term plan.

I don't think that would be possible, for a number of reasons.

This has really hurt the economy already, a lot of businesses have folded and huge job losses. And this is really only the start as the original furlough scheme is still running. After a winter of local lockdowns, things are going to be in appalling shape.

The cabinet may be all for this (although not all of them, it's clear Sunak is not a fan) but the back-benchers are becoming more and more restive, as as the right-wing press.

And finally there's a limit to what people will wear. The job losses will considerably dampen appetites for lockdown, and people will (and to some extent already have) simply start seeing loved ones again and doing whatever else they want, in greater and greater numbers. People that probably were very diligent about doing their bit during the initial lockdown, but really there's only so much of this that can be expected of society at large.

The fucking up of the track and test system by giving it to centralised private enterprises is an absolute scandal.

I'm in agreement, protect the vulnerable but the rest of us should be able to carry on being able to go about things as normal (just with a mask, social distancing and attending covid secure places)
That way, the vulnerable can make their own decisions about risks. The government could support the vulnerable financially meaning everyone else can continue working.

Agreed. Otherwise we won't have any jobs left, nor tax revenue to pay back the huge debts! Not to mention mental health problems etc.

And most young people are indeed asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms. There's even the hope that they'll build up some immunity!

What happens when The Vulnerable are allowed out again? They won't have developed the appropriate t cells so it will be just as dangerous for them as it is now.

But at least the rest of the economy can continue earning and paying taxes (partly to support the vulnerable).

And hopefully a vaccine will be available at some point- the vulnerable should be the first to get it.

I would be more in favour of a circuit breaker full lock down for 2 or 3 weeks to coincide with half term so there is minimum disruption to education and hopefully with some form of grant to businesses (non repayable) than these half arsed measures.

Now I agree that this wouldn't eradicate the virus altogether but would hope to think that it would stop the speed of the spread in the run up to the winter,

The truth is that the toothpaste is out of the tube though. The government has failed massively with covid due to its cronyism with regards to awarding track and trace to mates etc. Failing to train enough staff to man the Nightingale hospitals (what's the point in having the space if you don't have the staff?) I'm sick of hearing of personal responsibility. The government has a responsibility both with public health and with the way it spends tax payers money. It has failed on both counts.

Excellent thread OP!

The vulnerable should shield and the rest get on with it

I keep seeing this but it’s fatuous.

There are lots of “the vulnerable”. “Getting on with it” - keeping schools open, for example - could not happen if they were shielding.

Did anyone see the pub owner in Liverpool who is likely to go under and his employee who now won’t be able to pay her bills.

This is beyond ridiculous now.

@HipTightOnions

The vulnerable should shield and the rest get on with it

I keep seeing this but it’s fatuous.

There are lots of “the vulnerable”. “Getting on with it” - keeping schools open, for example - could not happen if they were shielding.

And Shielding is ^tough. ^ Why is it those people who are against a temporary lockdown for themselves often want to impose the hardest Lockdown on millions of other people indefinitely?

(We've got at least another year of this. More if it takes them much longer to provide a functional TTI system.)

Interesting article on t-cell response in covid and the fact that we don't know if it actually does anything alone, how it interests with b cells etc. Not a golden bullet as yet, far from it.

www.imperial.ac.uk/news/201833/cell-immunity-what-does-help-protect/

Thanks for posting this thread. I think it is important for these views to be part of the debate and be discussed without having "selfish" and "covidiot" hysterically growled at you.

@SussexDeb

Did anyone see the pub owner in Liverpool who is likely to go under and his employee who now won’t be able to pay her bills.

This is beyond ridiculous now.

It is.

When there is an alternative that saves lives and makes it safe enough for everyone to live their lives^^ and keep the economy going.

We really should be looking at the countries who have handled this successfully and doing what they do.

Nine times out of ten it's mostly down to decent Test and Trace.

*interacts

We did a lockdown, the stated purpose being that we bought time for the development of understanding, therapeutics, initial vaccine development and nightingales.

We shouldn't lock down ever again.