25% patients currently in hospital with Covid-19 caught it whilst there

[Mummabeary]

Pretty shocking statistic which has come to light in the press this evening. So when we're reporting there are 3600 people in England with Covid -19 actually about 700 were in hospital for other things and caught it whilst there. Yet we're all focussed on more restrictions in hospitality industry......surely the government needs to focus efforts on stopping the spread in hospitals first?

Not surprised. My local hospital, Weston-Super--Mare, managed to cause a huge outbreak earlier in the year.
They already have form for C Difficile, MRSA etc.

I'm not surprised at the figures themselves but am annoyed that this has had to be uncovered again by CEBM and that it really skews the picture in terms of the hospital situation. If up to a quarter of the hospital cases may actually be mild/ asymptomatic due to having just been discovered by testing in hospital. People are being locked down and having their businesses destroyed based on this data so we need to know the real picture.

Plus surely there's a targeted and quick win right there for the Government/NHS to reduce hospital figures by up to 25%. But instead of really focussing on this they are bleating on about pubs and restaurants etc

Yes. A number of cancer patients in Edinburgh have died after catching it hospital. So sad.

Or the spread in the community means it's impossible to keep Covid out of hospitals because staff and patients are reliant on public transport to get to work, and it's impossible (as a patient) to keep a mask on 24/7 because eating and drinking.

Until we have rapid testing of all patients the only way to avoid spread in hospitals is to avoid generalised spread.

Few people in hospital will remain asymptomatic as lowered immune system from eg operations, treatment or even the condition they came in for!

@Weedsnseeds1

Not surprised. My local hospital, Weston-Super--Mare, managed to cause a huge outbreak earlier in the year. They already have form for C Difficile, MRSA etc.

It did and yet the headlines were about people "flocking" to the beach and suggesting they were the root of the problem. There were people here begging others not to visit, when the majority of cases were home grown in the hospital.

I remember the outbreak at Weston as they sent the patients to us. The problem with a lot of hospitals are they are old and not designed for covid. So particularly in winter months there will be many patients stuffed into a bay/in narrow corridors and not able to wear masks. Covid patients won’t be able to be discharged back to care homes now so I suspect the situation will worsen. My suggestion would be for more community care.

@Mummabeary I hadn't realised that. We need figures for admissions because of CV symptoms not because they're in with something else. It doesn't give an accurate picture at all.

As well as people catching it whilst in, there will be people admitted for other things and coming in with it also in the figures. We really need a breakdown of numbers admitted just for covid

I don’t think you can say they caught Covid in hospital. More that they were tested once in hospital on admission and found to be positive. So they came in for a heart attack (say), had a Covid test as is procedure and then found to be positive. They came in with Covid but did not know.

Does anyone know - are the figures for hospital admissions with cv:

1. all patients admitted eg for a hip fracture, who also happen to test positive for cv but have not been made ill by it? (am I right that all admissions are tested now for cv?) OR

2. only patients admitted because of cv related illness/symptoms?

I realise this raises a different point from the one you've made op, but haven't seen the answer anywhere (I admit I haven't looked that hard!)

Plus we know people can test positive for weeks after they are infectious. So could have had Covid in past, not a recent infection

Let's hope the additional figures have actually been tested in hospital. I have real concerns about hospital hygiene and they are not covered in glory vis a vis MRSA

These are positive tests after at least 7 days in hospital not the admissions testing.

I wrote to my MP earlier this year to ask why he voted against the regular testing of all NHS staff as I could see how Covid was being spread through hospital wards. He sent a long reply full of bs about how there was no reason for staff not directly in contact with covid patients to be tested and the resources would be best directed to only staff in front facing covid wards. They can't blame the spread on visitors this time. All staff from top down need to be tested regularly along with patients. Additionally this is why community cases need to be controlled to enable hospitals to continue to function safely.

@Jrobhatch29 @sashagabadon

Yes you're right, i missed that. So there are actually 3 groups included in the hospital figure.

1. Those who come to hospital because of VV symptoms
2. Those who come to hospital for something else and only discover they have CV due to routine test (must be mild/asymptomatic)
3. Those who are in for something else and catch CV in hospital

Ah - I cross posted, see others are wondering the same thing!

I think the figures may give the number of people who came into hospital and then tested positive 7 days later - so if they'd had a negative test on admission it might be deduced that they were infected in hospital. (Not necessarily the case I suppose if they were false negative on admission, and then had a positive test.)

Is the important figure the one for admissions because of cv? I'm not sure if this is the one shown by the daily admissions figures.

It’s very worrying especially as we are being encouraged to use hospitals as normal (elderly father recently admitted with illness and I had an emergency scan a few weeks ago which I wanted to cancel but convinced myself hospitals are ‘safe’ now.)

I’m assuming people are catching it on the ward after being admitted?

@BlackPuddingEggs

These are positive tests after at least 7 days in hospital not the admissions testing.

If the admissions test was negative and the 7 day test was positive that is good evidence Covid was picked up in hospital but still not conclusive. If just a 7 day test done and no admission test then no conclusions can be drawn really. A cluster of Covid positive patients in a non Covid ward would be good evidence of hospital spread

@Mummabeary

Pretty shocking statistic which has come to light in the press this evening. So when we're reporting there are 3600 people in England with Covid -19 actually about 700 were in hospital for other things and caught it whilst there. Yet we're all focussed on more restrictions in hospitality industry......surely the government needs to focus efforts on stopping the spread in hospitals first?

This is such a backward way if looking at it. When an infectious illness spreads through the community, spread will be worse in areas where lots of people come together in close contact and the effects will be worst where those people are vulnerable , hospital being a perfect storm of this.

Spread will always be high in hospital, it isn't possible to be otherwise if numbers of cases coming in are high enough. The measures the hospital need to take to stop the spread become more difficult to implement the more cases they have , leading to more cases, a vicious circle

Yes hospitals need to implement as many measures to stop the spread as possible but isolation of cases becomes very very difficult the more if then they have

Hospital will always be a risky place during a pandemic. It is part of the reason why letting the virus 'rip though ' while 'protecting the vulnerable' is not possible

"Spread will always be high in hospital, it isn't possible to be otherwise if numbers of cases coming in are high enough."

Does infection control 'success' vary between hospitals? It would be interesting to know if mitigation of the risk is more successful in some places than others.

My trust tests all patients on admission and they should ideally wait until they get their results to be moved either to red or green areas.
The problem is that patients keep coming in so there is nowhere to keep these waiting patients so they are transferred to areas without a result. We do consider symptoms etc but as we all know alot of patients are asymptomatic. Now my trust also repeats tests at set intervals and we have had positive results. So it's possible patients got covid in hospital or that the time we did the first test got a false negative due to timing of the test.

All patients should wear masks, most do not unless they are leaving the ward, we allow visitors but they often turn up early for their booked 1 hour or stay longer or bring extra people with them. We don't have extra staff to police this, if I see this I do ask extra visitors to leave but the risk is there due to the extra footfall in the hospital. We as staff cannot socially distance even though we have PPE (paper masks) we are still so close to each other. Break rooms are tiny, clinical rooms for drawing up drugs are tiny. I see the problems of transmission in hospital on a daily basis but it is not addressed. This will get worse. In March it was easier as less patients coming in now, are really busy with non covid sick patients on top of covid admissions and then flu will complicate this as it does every year. Myself and my colleagues really do try our best with patients/visiting reminding other staff to wear PPE appropriately and social distancing (this is impossible however).

Wemayhavemetbefore If a hospital has a lot of side rooms there will less spread of infectious diseases ( more falls though!) its the older hospitals which are mainly made of wards that will be the most risky. Particularly the inner city ones.

I’m surprised visitors are allowed in hospitals at the moment. That surely doesn’t help.They aren’t allowed in my local hospital as my father was recently admitted and we couldn’t see him.

@Savemyusername

I’m surprised visitors are allowed in hospitals at the moment. That surely doesn’t help.They aren’t allowed in my local hospital as my father was recently admitted and we couldn’t see him.

I was going to say the same. We are in a low risk area and the hospital concerned has been covid free for many weeks now, but still when DH had major surgery 6 weeks ago, no visitors were allowed, either in ICU or when he was on the ward.