Hospital Dr's interesting challenge to Covid-deniers.

[AutumnalLeaves38]

Just read this and curious to know what others think about this idea.
Wonder if any exasperated British medics might soon follow suit.

“This is an official invitation to mask- and Covid-19 deniers to accompany me for 9 whole hours during the emergency duty of the hospital the day after tomorrow. But without a mask and with a signed statement. Next to me. With me. Among patients of Covid-19.”

• Dr Nikos Razis, Ippokatio Hospital, Athens

Source:
www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2020/09/30/doctor-mask-covid-19-deniers-invitation-hospital/#comments

I have no faith in masks, but I doubt they do any harm and it’s not a big deal to wear one, so I wear one. Not actually sure what the LAW is, but if It makes other people more comfortable, why not just do it?

What is this doctor saying that other doctors have said since Mrch? Suggesting covid deniers visit wards with very ill patients isn't something new, medical professionals have been saying that since the start, even Kate Caraway said something along the same lines a couple of days ago.

This isn't new, I'm happy to wear a mask btw, this just doesn't seem like anything new at this stage

So, as a restrictions-denier (I agree Covid is real, but think we're now locked into a cycle of lockdowns and restrictions that will ultimately do more harm than good), if I do this then:

I can have dental treatment
I can have all the ante-natal appointments I've been recommended to have
My husband can be present at the birth of our child
When baby arrives, I can go to playgroups, etc
I can hug my gran, who doesn't understand why we don't visit any more
I can have my friends over for dinner
I can sing in a choir
I can go back into the office
And more, I'm sure, that I haven't thought of yet.

Where do I sign up?

I don't deny masks are useful when medical grade masks are worn properly. I'm not convinced they are as useful when fabric masks are worn by the general public. That doctor clearly didn't pull his mask out the bottom of his bag, put it on, take it off and fiddle with it while he drank a coffee, put it back on again, pull it down to scratch an itchy nose etc. Doctors are held to higher hygiene standards at work than the general public in a shop and for very good reason.

@starfish88

I don't deny masks are useful when medical grade masks are worn properly. I'm not convinced they are as useful when fabric masks are worn by the general public. That doctor clearly didn't pull his mask out the bottom of his bag, put it on, take it off and fiddle with it while he drank a coffee, put it back on again, pull it down to scratch an itchy nose etc. Doctors are held to higher hygiene standards at work than the general public in a shop and for very good reason.

That's why here in Italy you can only wear one of two kinds.

@WalesAppearsToBeSlightlySaner

Maybe in return the doctor could follow me to meet with a patient whose cancer diagnosis was delayed and now has to say goodbye to her children. We could then visit the empty high street with shops closing and more security staff than customers. We could then peek behind closed doors at the woman who can’t escape her abuser and their child who has begun to be hit now daddy is drinking more after losing his job. School is optional now so he doesn’t go. We could head to the house of a newborn who is failing to thrive and there are no health visits to check on them. Off next to the care home where a grandfather had his last hug in March and now will die alone. We can meet John who lives alone in Merthyr and his one lifeline of a pub visit with his mates is taken away. He’s suicidal but no face to face therapy for him.

You speak as if accepting all this was on ok trade off. I disagree. That doesn’t make me stupid or cruel but a person who has seen some awful things and knows once doors shut the world isn’t safe for everyone.

Please please explain this to me because I don't get it. 'Trade off' implies that these things could have happened if it weren't for certain restrictions, that all these things could have happened during the growth of covid infection to a natural peak.

That is wildly unrealistic. All these things would actually have been worse at that point, and happening to many more people.

There is a balance to be had, but unless you can magic covid away, there is no 'trade off' where the problems you mention go away.

@AlecTrevelyan006

I don’t wear a seat belt when sat on my sofa nor do I wear a crash helmet when waking down the street.

Wearing a mask while working in a hospital makes sense

Whereas wearing one when popping into the corner shop for a pint of milk is pretty pointless

There is just as much virus in the community as in hospital.

Your simple analogy only works on the simple and bloody minded. Clever people know life is more complex.

@110APiccadilly

So, as a restrictions-denier (I agree Covid is real, but think we're now locked into a cycle of lockdowns and restrictions that will ultimately do more harm than good), if I do this then:

I can have dental treatment
I can have all the ante-natal appointments I've been recommended to have
My husband can be present at the birth of our child
When baby arrives, I can go to playgroups, etc
I can hug my gran, who doesn't understand why we don't visit any more
I can have my friends over for dinner
I can sing in a choir
I can go back into the office
And more, I'm sure, that I haven't thought of yet.

Where do I sign up?

I don't think any such conditions are attached! If we drop all restrictions though, you can absolutely sing for almost all of them. Not that I am saying the restrictions we have now are the right ones or will work, not sure about that.

It's not restrictions or life as normal though is it? Thats not the choice we have to make. If hospitals are rammed with covid it's not a safe place to have chemo or routine surgery, if all the healthcare staff are off sick or dealing with critically Ill patients there will be no apppintments available. If people in care homes start contacting covid again like they did in march theres no one to visit.

It's not restrictions or life as normal though is it? Thats not the choice we have to make.

Exactly Tangled. But there are many on here and IRL who will not face this. I don't know what it is, I think in some cases the truth is so out of sync with their emotional wishes that they just cannot process it. Very lazy thinking.

@AlecTrevelyan006

What's the difference in risk between you sustaining injury to your head whilst walking down the street, and you catching COVID by not wearing a mask in an enclosed public space?

it just might save someone else.
isn't it worth it for that alone

Over five million children have died globally this year, a figure which vastly overshadows the covid deaths. Most of these deaths are related to poverty.

Almost all of us could do more, give most of our disposable income to charities dealing with this rather than spending on anything unnecessary. But we don't.
Why do they not matter? And how is it any different?

@Ophelia2020 what a unnecessary comment. It’s been horrendous, many staff have ptsd.

[quote Eckhart]@AlecTrevelyan006

What's the difference in risk between you sustaining injury to your head whilst walking down the street, and you catching COVID by not wearing a mask in an enclosed public space?[/quote]
if I sustain a head injury while walking down the street I will probably suffer more than if I catch covid

i don't know anyone who has had covid but i do know quite a few people who have suffered injuries while walking down the street, such as my cousin who was killed in a hit and run and a friend who suffered long term brain damage after tripping on a kerb

covid is real, but the overwhelming vast majority of people who catch it will suffer none or only mild symptoms. Even those in the most vulnerable groups are more likely to survive than not.

I remain unconvinced that wearing a face covering in shops has any measurable benefit to anyone and is a disproportionate restriction in relation to the problem at hand

@Ophelia2020 what a unnecessary comment. It’s been horrendous, many staff have ptsd

From the dancing routines?

@AlecTrevelyan006

I don’t wear a seat belt when sat on my sofa nor do I wear a crash helmet when waking down the street.

Wearing a mask while working in a hospital makes sense

Whereas wearing one when popping into the corner shop for a pint of milk is pretty pointless

You do all the first things you mention to protect yourself, the lady also protects others if you are asymptomatic especially.

Ps I know one person who’s sustained a head injury 25 years ago. I know six who have had Covid this year. Three long term. One died. It’s not anecdotal Ping pong though.

I get where he is coming from, but this doesn't quite make sense to me, unless its both covid (and mask) deniers, rather than OR which is how it appears to me? Because mask deniers don't seem to deny covid exists, they seem to have not much faith in masks (among the general public, it seems accepted by all that in certain situations of course they are effective). So while they would be quite happy to not wear a mask in general life, not wearing a mask in a room full of confirmed covid suffers is an odd situation because in no other situation will you be in a room with multiple other people confirmed to be ill with covid. It wouldn't be the non mask wearing part that concerned them, it would be being in a room with so much of the illness? Would anyone who really believes in the effectiveness of masks be happy in such a situation with a mask on? Or happy (as masks largely do nothing to protect the wearer) if everyone in the ward had a mask on too, would they stay there for 9 hours, in a flimsy piece of fabric surrounded by confirmed ill people also wearing pieces of fabric?

So I guess I am kind of missing the point of this 'offer' (which surely no hospital would allow anyway so I am fairly sure its just for likes or whatever.)

I appreciate the sentiment though. Must be extremely annoying for many health professionals to deal with. Though my sister is a nurse and is rather..anti mask. Outside of a work setting. She does wear one before people start, but she is also unconvinced on the effectiveness among the general public, given the average person will have had the same mask for days, if not weeks/months and shoves them in pockets/bags etc. Along with the (silightly self centred but also understandable) 'I wear a mask all day at work so don't want to after too!' type thing.

Anti-mask people don't bother her in the slightest. But outright covid deniers? Yeah, even mentioning that in her presence sends her into a rage. Apparently that is 'brought up' by a few patients, how its all a hoax, how collective governments are plotting to make us more compliant, etc etc. Given she spent much of her time last time around dealing with covid patients, many very very seriously ill and some who died, they REALLY piss her off obviously. Not even sure how those who believe that tripe manage to survive at all to be quite honest.

So yeah, kind of get where he is coming from. But I don't personally put mask deniers in the same bracket as covid deniers. And thus don't really think the offer makes much sense, when applied to anti-maskers. Covid deniers though, yes makes perfect sense.

It's not restrictions or life as normal though is it? Thats not the choice we have to make. If hospitals are rammed with covid it's not a safe place to have chemo or routine surgery

The things is, most actual patients know this. I have had a devil of a time getting patients in for cancer scans, urgent appointments about their kidney failure, and other urgent matters that cannot be done over the phone, because patients know full well that attending a hospital full of covid is risky. We have a 50% DNA rate for our face to face clinics currently. People do not want to come to hospital for treatment at the moment. They will accept phone calls and will take tablets, but they don’t want to come in in person.

The people bemoaning the lack of non-cancer treatment (and yes it is very noticeable that it is only ever cancer they are worried about) never seem to be patients, or actually know any patients. It’s just a handy proxy for abandoning any covid restrictions.

Why are you so desperate to put people into two diverse groups?

1. The good, obedient and compliant band of brothers doing everything they can and lapping it all up.

1. The Covid deniers.

When in reality, there is a whole spectrum of opinion. Thinking the restrictions are disproportionate and causing more harm elsewhere is not the same as believing the virus doesn't exist. You don't HAVE to like wearing a mask. Being prepared to stand up and question what's going on - yet still complying with the law - is MUCH better than blindly accepting everything thrown at you.

Ohhh they won't do that! I know a COVID denier who sends his wife shopping 😄

@WalesAppearsToBeSlightlySaner

Maybe in return the doctor could follow me to meet with a patient whose cancer diagnosis was delayed and now has to say goodbye to her children. We could then visit the empty high street with shops closing and more security staff than customers. We could then peek behind closed doors at the woman who can’t escape her abuser and their child who has begun to be hit now daddy is drinking more after losing his job. School is optional now so he doesn’t go. We could head to the house of a newborn who is failing to thrive and there are no health visits to check on them. Off next to the care home where a grandfather had his last hug in March and now will die alone. We can meet John who lives alone in Merthyr and his one lifeline of a pub visit with his mates is taken away. He’s suicidal but no face to face therapy for him.

You speak as if accepting all this was on ok trade off. I disagree. That doesn’t make me stupid or cruel but a person who has seen some awful things and knows once doors shut the world isn’t safe for everyone.

I agree with all your points but nothing will improve whilst Covid deniers continue to influence others. I don't think the Greek doctor was dismissing other problems I think it was a direct attack to those whom "scream I am not wearing a muzzle". Nothing more.