Autonomy and choice

[Orangeblossom7777]

Noticed this today in the Guardian's news feed and thought it made sense. How much of these rules take away people's own choice and common sense?

A World Health Organization special envoy on coronavirus has warned against imposing stricter rules to control behaviour, arguing people must support the restrictions needed to slow the spread.
David Nabarro told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme:

This war, and I think it’s reasonable to call it a war, against this virus, which is going to go on for the foreseeable future, is not going to be won by creating tougher and tougher rules that attempt to control people’s behaviour.

The only way that we will come out ahead of this virus is if we’re all able to do the right thing in the right place at the right time because we choose to do it.

I think we will get the point, I just hope that it doesn’t require a lot more people to end up in hospital and dying for us all to get the point, that all of us, all of us, have to be rigorous about physical distance, wearing masks, hygiene, isolating when we’re sick and protecting those who are most vulnerable.

The tougher rules are because people don't do the basics. Frustrating.

Think battle is a more accurate word to a war.

First we need honest and trusted leadership and an objective - what are we actually trying to do? For how long? When will we stop? What will it cost? Who’s paying, who’s benefiting, what are the factors preventing people doing what they’re supposed to? It needs buy in from a majority of society that we agree with the objective, believe these restrictions are actually worth it, will lead to the objective set and are being obeyed by everyone. I’m not seeing any of that right now.

You only have to read the umpteen threads on here to see how people think "guidelines" don't refer to them. Remove even then and the country really will be fucked for decades.
And, sadly, I think your final paragraph could be prophetic. It shouldn't need Draconian laws for people to understand the scientific basics. But if they think they don't apply to them....

It should have been draconian laws from the beginning, not those wishy washy so called 'guidelines'. Most restaurants are doing whatever the hell they want, with no social distancing measures and no contact tracing. People in busy indoor shops are not wearing masks or social distancing. The threats of more drastic measures are because people are not following the basic rules. The it's all so bloody complicated now that the PM and his ministers can't keep up with the rules.

It should have been draconian laws from the beginning, not those wishy washy so called 'guidelines'.

No thanks Draconian laws wtf you on?

The problem is that there is no exit plan so is it rolling lockdowns which after each time people are less likely to comply.

It should have been draconian laws from the beginning, not those wishy washy so called 'guidelines'.

And there you have it, people are actually calling for draconian society and removal of civil liberties. Just when my opinion of society couldn't get much lower

QueenBlueberries, have you been to a restaurant lately? I think your view is the product of an over-excited imagination.

One problem with the intial lockdown (which I opposed with every fibre of my being) is that people were led subtly to believe that normal life would resume at the end of it. In fact, most of us are still in the mire, and things are going to become much worse for huge swathes of the population.

There will - I hope! - come a point where the majority of people who have complied thus far look at what has been asked of them, look at the result of everything they have done thus far, and see that it is not achieving anything other than to make their own lives poorer, more difficult, and more miserable.

@blue565

That's because they dont think it will affect them until it's something they don't like.

Many people are in favour of tougher measures until it actually impacts their life. People generally agree about the need to quarantine with symptoms or a positive test but when it comes down to it very few actually fully comply believing the rules don't actually apply specifically to them. So thinking it's right for pesky students to be locked up but it's different for me because I'm only popping out to Waitrose and that's not going to cause anyone any harm is a big part of the problem.

People generally agree about the need to quarantine with symptoms or a positive test but when it comes down to it very few actually fully comply believing the rules don't actually apply specifically to them

Either that, or they literally can't afford to have any time off work. Some people haven't had a single penny from the government, either in furlough or to replace lost income or in benefits. Some people (including me) qualify for a big fat zero.

These people can't afford to have time off work unless they are more or less dead. It's not that they think it doesn't apply to them. It's because the alternative is even worse.

Again, I don't think anyone at all should be locked up or down for any reason related to Covid.

I tried to explain that to someone on the NHS app thread when I said I wont download it as catch public transport and don't want to isolate just because someone on same bus triggers it, that people can't afford,her response was you should and i don't make the rules, no understanding at all.

I think one of the most noticeable things to come out of this is the inability of a large number of people to see things from someone else's perspective. I think we're all guilty of it to some degree, although some more than others.

A number of people are incapable of understanding that some people don't have a financial buffer and live from pay day to pay day. If they don't get get paid, they don't eat, or the rent doesn't get paid.

But some people are distinctly lacking in common sense and if they're actions are affecting society as a whole, then what choice is there but to make it law? This happens in every other aspect of life too.

You can choose to have parties every night but if you're negating your neighbors right to sleep then the law will force you (eventually) to do the right thing.

Their actions

@ChodeOfChodeBall I fully understand that some people have no choice regarding quarantine and that is why people should be supported to do what is necessary. What is was referring to was those that should and could isolate and believe others should until it comes to them doing it and then it's all ifs and buts. As an example my teen DC had to isolate due to a case in her lessons but very few of her classmates complied, they still went out shopping and to eat out. Also people returning from holiday abroad not isolating. This is the reason we have cases climbing. People do not believe the rules apply to them.

I’d love it if all of us were being rigorous about masks and social distancing but I’ve got 2 dc at school sitting in classrooms for hours with neither of those things. As per government guidelines of course.

@Blue565

It should have been draconian laws from the beginning, not those wishy washy so called 'guidelines'.

And there you have it, people are actually calling for draconian society and removal of civil liberties. Just when my opinion of society couldn't get much lower

This. Some posts scare me

I get what you are saying OP and I don't have any answers, but some people will never 'get it' in the way that you hope and voluntarily take precautions,

This. Some posts scare me
Totalarism

They are happy until its their life's getting challenged then it's a different matter, it's scary how many want this.

Some pubs and restaurants are very good with social distancing measures, will have perplex panels between tables, a menu that you can download or a menu on the wall, and you have to give name/number for track and trace. Others quite frankly have put absolutely nothing in place. Masks on public transport? Take it off whenever you want. Social distancing in shops? Party on the street? Fine. Drive to Barnard Castle when in lockdown? OK with the Prime Minister.

If people did follow the guidance, we would probably be in a better position. But way too many people don't. So there you go, over 7,000 today.

Other country's are rising but people keep putting it on this and that.

You can't escape a virus we kicked it down road once,do we keep kicking it.

Yes that's exactly what we do. We try to kick it down the road until we find a vaccine. And we have to try and balance it with keeping the economy working. It's a fine balancing act but we won't get there if people keep on ignoring the rules.

One problem with the intial lockdown (which I opposed with every fibre of my being) is that people were led subtly to believe that normal life would resume at the end of it. In fact, most of us are still in the mire, and things are going to become much worse for huge swathes of the population. There will - I hope! - come a point where the majority of people who have complied thus far look at what has been asked of them, look at the result of everything they have done thus far, and see that it is not achieving anything other than to make their own lives poorer, more difficult, and more miserable

This. The ‘New Normal’ we’re told constitutes our existence now is grey, sterile and utterly joyless. All of the fun, playfulness and spontaneity that made life anything more than utilitarian has gone.

To state the obvious, this is a virus; it’s doing, very efficiently, what viruses do. No one (despite what the government would have you believe in all their ‘divide and rule’ political manoeuvring) is ‘to blame’ - not students, not kids in schools, not specific ethnic groups living in multigenerational households - Covid finds a host, any host, and it spreads. Every time we come out of a lockdown, no matter how draconian, it will surge, again and again, until we have a vaccine.

I’ve complied, more or less, with all the restrictions so far. But I’m done, and so are most of my usually very law abiding, middle class professional ‘pillar or society’ friends and family. What are we as a society, and especially the younger generations, actually getting out of all this misery? What do our kids have to look forward to?

If we don't keep kicking it down the road then at some point we face exponential growth to a natural peak of infection. I think the govt genuinely fear the damage that would do to education, the economy, non covid healthcare, security etc will be harder to deal with that the damage from the restrictions. The threat from a natural peak would get lower as more people become immune but as yet we don't if any immunity persists for long, and developing anything like herd immunity through controlled low level infection or even a series of managed 'peaks' would take years and years.

I’ve complied, more or less, with all the restrictions so far. But I’m done, and so are most of my usually very law abiding, middle class professional ‘pillar or society’ friends and family. What are we as a society, and especially the younger generations, actually getting out of all this misery? What do our kids have to look forward to?

By the sounds of it, what they have to look forward to is living through exponential growth of the virus to a natural peak. Fasten your seat belts, and don't count on any schools or a and e depts being open.