Track and Trace App Questions

[MissPoldark]

I dutifully downloaded the NHS covid track & trace app at the weekend, but I’m just wondering how sophisticated the technology is when it comes to alerting you about contacts.

I was thinking about potential scenarios:

I generally charge my phone next to an outside wall. On the other side is quite a busy footpath. I obviously haven’t been physically near anyone passing or stopping for a chat, but presumably the app doesn’t know that and would alert me if they tested positive?

At work, I sit next to an internal wall, which someone else also sits next to on the other side. There could also be people above and below. I guess the app can’t detect walls , so if the person in the adjacent office tests positive, the app will think I’ve been in contact with them. Not to mention above and below.

I know I can get around this by turning the Bluetooth off in certain situations, but it’s going to end up more often off than on, assuming I remember to do it!

I’m guessing the creators have considered these situations and it’s not perfect or 100% foolproof. But I can imagine many people receiving false alerts and isolating unnecessarily or forgetting to turn their Bluetooth on when really needed then missing true contacts....

Sorry Test and Trace. I’ve listened to so many people mistakenly refer to it as Track and trace!

I don't think the footpath would be an issue unless someone stopped and landed against your wall for several minutes. In passing doesn't count as contact. I'm not sure about the office though. My knowledge of Bluetooth isn't that good.

My concern was you remain checked into a venue until you either check into another venue, or midnight following check in. This could mean false registering as a contact if someone with covid visited after you.

I've got round this by generating a QR code for my home and I'll scan it when I get back from wherever, to 'deregister' from wherever I last registered.

Oo that's clever, @FromTheAshes!

Does the app not use location data to know when you’ve left?
In any case I thought you would only be alerted if you’d been detected in the vicinity of someone who tests positive. So if you’re not actually there, and your phone isn’t sending & receiving signals in the place, it’s not going to identify you as a contact.
I’m not too sure but this was how I’d understood it worked.

I think there is a difference between getting an alert to say a venue you have visited may have had an outbreak, and being asked to SI because you have had a high risk contact. faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01213/en-us

and here faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01312/en-us?parentid=CAT-01035&rootid=

This is why I am not installing that shit on my phone.

Does not work properly (read the news story about not being able to input a negative test so having to self isolate even if you have confirmed not got it or get a £10,000 fine). Different common scenarios, such has been mentioned here already and many others, not been factored in to the algorithms.

A dumb, poorly made app, with potential to make massive amounts of errors...all now attached to a massive life destroying fine.

Fuck that.

I have experience of government IT and frankly it never works. I'm not installing it as I know what will happen..false positives

Does your phone not have to be in 'close contact' with another for 15 minutes before you'd get alerted if they received a positive test?

We've been asked to switch ours off at work because of this. As the app would assume we are all in close contact with each other for most of the day, but really it would just be our phones in the staff room area.

This might help:

faq.covid19.nhs.uk/category/?id=CAT-01028&parentid=CAT-01024

My opinion has been rendered moot.

I've just been on the thread about people without the app being denied entry and my too old phone can't run it anyway.

I see a potential upturn in sales of old fashioned brick burner phones coming.

Yes, you are supposed to switch off in phones in bags or lockers. SI requests through app are not subject to the law. And this also makes it clear the QR thing is NOT the same as the contact tracing - it is more about alerting you to be on the look out for symptoms.www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54326267

Is to safe to have Bluetooth on? I thought that Bluetooth makes your phone visible to other devices ?

This is why I am not installing that shit on my phone

What is why? I’ve asked a couple of questions about specific scenarios, I haven’t suggested that people shouldn’t use it.

Does not work properly (read the news story about not being able to input a negative test
Which was promptly fixed.

I have similar questions. I have to scan the QR code before my DC enters sports centre for their sports club. I never enter centre myself. I sit in the car for an hour. What if the parent sitting in the next car has also scanned the QR code for their DC and later enters a positive result? Will I get an alert? Will I get an alert if someone in the hall next door to my DC's club gets a positive result?

@SeasickPenguin

This is why I am not installing that shit on my phone.

Does not work properly (read the news story about not being able to input a negative test so having to self isolate even if you have confirmed not got it or get a £10,000 fine). Different common scenarios, such has been mentioned here already and many others, not been factored in to the algorithms.

A dumb, poorly made app, with potential to make massive amounts of errors...all now attached to a massive life destroying fine.

Fuck that.

why would you need to enter a negative test?

If you get a negative test, there's no point in entering it because there is no need for the app to alert anyone. If you've previously been alerted and then get a negative test you'd still need to isolate for 14 days since contact, just as you would if you were a known contact contacted by test & trace.

I haven't downloaded yet as have an old iphone so fairly sure i can't, but if I manage to, how does the 'turn off tracing' thing work? E.g. if I leave somewhere and want to be sure I am not alerted falsely, would that be suitable? Could some people just continuously turn off tracing?

Re: walls though, the app works on strength of bluetooth signals. It uses a combination of strength & other risk factors to work out whether you are a contact or not. Physical barriers, such as walls, will decrease the bluetooth strength so I think it's unlikely that someone walking past an outside wall with a phone would trigger an alert.

What is why?

Hypothetical scenerios where you have not actually been near the CV positive individual/person who's reported having "symptoms" but the app says you have been near them, the result of which would be financial ruin through repeated episodes of 14 days of self isolation under threat of a £10,000 fine for not doing as an app tells you.

The app cannot see walls nor if you are standing in the street while a person of concern to the app is sitting on a bus stuck in traffic, in a parked car nearish to you or sitting watching TV in the flat above the shop you may be standing next to. None of my research says that distance between devices can accurately be determined from any given Bluetooth connection because there are many variables. The range of Bluetooth on a lot of modern phones is 100m/328ft, that's a wide radius of potential mistaken contacts to lose your wages or all your savings for.

...And I didn't say you suggested people don't use it, please don't attempt to put words in my mouth.

Is to safe to have Bluetooth on? I thought that Bluetooth makes your phone visible to other devices

When bluetooth use was very common, hackers were spoofing old connections and such to hack phones which was possible because of bluetooth. Stuff like that. Its 'safe' as such but also makes it more risky than not having it on. Depends on there being a hacker nearby trying to gain access to your data really, which..if use of the app and using bluetooth constantly gets high enough, such risks will rise too.

the result of which would be financial ruin through repeated episodes of 14 days of self isolation under threat of a £10,000 fine for not doing as an app tells you
Fines only apply to those who have tested positive or those contacted by Test and Trace. They do not apply to the app.

I think they've changed that Judas due the number of people that weren't isolating when told to.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54320482

Sorry I've misread your post. I see you mentioned test & trace, not just a +ve test.

I downloaded the app last week and this weekend we took DS to university 5 hours away. The university is in a city on the watchlist and we stopped at 4 different motorway services on the journey there and back as well as staying in a hotel overnight. Today both DH and I have had a notification flash up on our phones, so quickly that we didn’t get a chance to read it properly, and then disappear. Can’t find it anywhere! Are notifications stored anywhere on an iPhone?

I have similar concerns of not 'trusting' the app to work distance and contacts out correctly!
@LaBelleSauvage123 if you drag your finger down the top of your screen it brings up notifications normally. Although my eBay ones disappear and don't come up there.