“Europe stays committed to in-person classes as school outbreaks remain rare”

[notevenat20]

What do people think about this article?

www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/coronavirus-outbreaks-schools-europe/2020/09/27/0dd19bf6-ff48-11ea-b0e4-350e4e60cc91_story.html

The whole thing is fascinating but this stuck out for me

“ Viral spread in school appears rare enough, he said, that Belgian policymakers think having in-person classes might actually be safer than virtual schooling, assuming students tend to be less rigorous about social distancing when they’re not being supervised in classrooms.”

That 20 is the average class size in Germany is also a fairytale .Maybe in East Germany .All schools are over subscribed and 26 is the average in Grades( 1-4 .) Grades( 5-10 ) 31 students per class .Grades 12/13 For Abitur usually less as so many drop out .Schools have been open in Germany somewhere all the time since May

Ds is year 11
I am hoping class sizes of 20 will prevent any outbreaks
Although 2 pupils contracted the virus in year 8 and that year were all sent home

Don’t most secondary schools have a bubble system and restrictions on movement around the school?

The "bubbles" in my school are between 200 and 250 pupils large. Then every child is also in a "bus bubble" which crosses all the yeargroups. Plus all the teachers teach across all yeargroups. Plus almost all of our pupils have siblings/friends in another yeargroup that they see outside of school.

The classroom is the most likely place in a school for transmission to happen, as they are all sitting in the same room breathing the same air for an hour +. At break, they are outside usually (until the wet weather sets in), and they have more space to move around and most pupils in my school actually choose to sit a bit further away from each other than they are forced to in classrooms (not always, obviously, and we are still having to break up teenage snogging on the playground)

@notevenat20

Average class size by country. The smaller the classes, the better the return to school seems to be going, infection wise.

It's a nice chart but I am not sure of its relevance unless we think almost all the infection is happening in the classroom during lessons? Wouldn't it be more likely in break time when children climb on top of each other?

In any case, the evidence from Europe seems to be that schools just don't transmit the virus around internally a great deal.

No, because break is outside, lessons are inside.

«Many countries in Europe have dropped rules about wearing masks in schools, reasoning that it’s difficult for students to concentrate when they have them on all day.«

Not true in France. Masks obligatory for all, all the time, in secondary, except for when eating in the cantine. The govt is reducing school / class closures by not allowing it to happen until 3+ positive cases per class, and saying that children basically don’t pass it between each other, so a single positive case is no cause for concern,

I do think there has been a reluctance for in person education in the America’s generally without evidence that school closure that they work to particularly control infections levels. The us shut schools in March/ April and 6 out of 7 children have not returned to in face education in September yet Florida, Texas, California all saw huge rises in cases over the summer with schools shut. Equally schools have been shut in mexico since March still not open now - yet the country has a one of the Highest death tolls. Even in Brazil many states still haven’t opened schools and will not until October yet again they have seen huge rises during this time).

The narrative that shuttung schools is a key infection control measure doesn’t fit when the worst impacted countries have all taken that measure often for very long periods of time. I think it tends to be a favoured option over other closures in capitalist economies since the direct economic hit of school closure isn’t so obvious particularly in countries with lower famale employment rates. Equally teachers usually retain a salary despite closure so it doesn’t have the impact on unemployment that closing bars or other service industries does.

But when we look at countries that have done well re covid they don’t tend to include those with really long school closures. Germany opened its schools up quite early for example as did Norway and Sweden kept them open throughout. I can certainly see why many European countries have come to the conclusion that ending in person education isn’t the most effective virus control measure and that ideas such as good test, track and trace are more impactful.

Not that the U.K. is doing that either but I do believe that is where the evidence points to if you want to control the virus rather than specifically in school closures.

Our student s don't sd within themselves at all, they lean to each other, talk to each other in close groups, and do group work together set by teachers. Eg 5 students all sat round one desk. At lunch they can't sd really as no where to eat except classrooms.

They only wear masks on public corridor but usually by the time they have put it on they are out anyway.

The current thinking is that it has to do with distancing and ventilation. The lack of both in our schools is contributing to the awful rise we are seeing just now. If schools do not transmit, it's because they are set up with the space and numbers to allow for proper social distancing. If they are not, transmission will happen. We are not able to distance with all children in full time, so we can only expect transmission.

In all honesty trying to say that you can't prove that transmission is occurring in schools is starting to feel like the argument that HIV doesn't exist because it's not possible to grow it in a petri dish.

@notevenat20

Average class size by country. The smaller the classes, the better the return to school seems to be going, infection wise.

It's a nice chart but I am not sure of its relevance unless we think almost all the infection is happening in the classroom during lessons? Wouldn't it be more likely in break time when children climb on top of each other?

In any case, the evidence from Europe seems to be that schools just don't transmit the virus around internally a great deal.

No. They are sitting touching in class due to space issues, and the ventilation is poor so they are breathing the same air as each other for 60 mins. The idea that schools don’t cause infections is ludicrous. If it’s true, we can stop all social distancing and mask wearing because proximity and breathing on each other are perfectly safe. Excellent news!

They are sitting touching in class due to space issues,

Is this in secondary school? That's a pretty parlour state if secondary school pupils have to touch each other during lessons.

In all honesty trying to say that you can't prove that transmission is occurring in schools is starting to feel

I think it's quite different to that. Common sense tells you that schools might be terrible for covid infection. But the reality of millions of children in schools around the world seems to point in the opposite direction.

I rather think that article is cherry picking to make a point about schools in the US some of which have not gone back at all.

I note the complete absence of any mention of England.

For example this bit “Of Belgium’s 8,400 schools, 16 have closed fully or partially because of the coronavirus.” would read rather differently if it were about England. That many schools have easily closed partly or fully in single cities over here.

the reality of millions of children in schools around the world seems to point in the opposite direction.

The latest figures from the PHE surveillance report make sobering reading. 20% of schools nationwide here have had bubbles burst. There are children missing school right now because their classmates are positive - why is it so prevalent here?

Is this in secondary school? That's a pretty parlour state if secondary school pupils have to touch each other during lessons.

They are sat shoulder to shoulder as they are in corridors.

what are the "many countries in Europe"?

Germany here (Berlin - DC and NRW - DN a teacher): SD, masks, hand sanitizing and regular airing of rooms.

Specifically DS school (sek I and II) has currently: 2 pupils out bec. of Covid, 2 teachers teaching from home and one male, overweight teacher just back from retirement to help out in his subject.

@notevenat20 how do you think students in Secondary school should be sitting?

The latest figures from the PHE surveillance report make sobering reading. 20% of schools nationwide here have had bubbles burst. There are children missing school right now because their classmates are positive - why is it so prevalent here?

I don’t know the average bubble size but the average size of a secondary school is just under 1000. If 20% of secondaries have at least one positive case this mean that at least 1 in 5000 secondary school pupils have tested positive. That is at least 0.02%. Of course it could be as high as 20% if it’s actually 20% of the pupils who have tested positive but that isn’t what we have been told.

The reason that such a tiny percentage is a problem is because bubbles are large and we send the whole year home for 14 days. In France, for example, they just send the poorly child home.

how do you think students in Secondary school should be sitting?

On chairs with at least some room between them.

How much room?

In France, for example, they just send the poorly child home.

Do you think we should abandon our policy of requiring contacts to isolate? No track and trace? Dido Harding might be relieved to hear this. Genuinely not sure what you are hoping to achieve here.

Do you think we should abandon our policy of requiring contacts to isolate? No track and trace? Dido Harding might be relieved to hear this. Genuinely not sure what you are hoping to achieve here.

I do think we may need to follow our European neighbours when it comes to schools. I know the French system best but I think they all have different ways of avoiding sending the entire year home for one case. Each has a cost of course.

In France for example all secondary pupils wear masks. It’s not great but it allows them to only send one child home. Primary children are regarded as less likely to spread the virus around the school so don’t wear masks but are also sent home individually.

We could start by sending the first child home individually and only call PHE in if there are two or three cases in a class.

If anyone knows how other European countries manage it I would love to know.

There is no room between students in many classes as lots of the tables we not single desks. No money for new rules individual desks so children sit shoulder to shoulder.

I gat should read no money for new individual desks

My school seem to have slyly done away with the "bubble isolating" idea. We now have 8 confirmed cases in students (years 7, 8, 11 and 13) and 3 staff but no year groups or bubbles have isolated. Instead they have just advised "close contacts" to isolate, as specified in seating plans. Which is a complete nonsense as they most likely socialise with different kids than they sit with.
Add to this the fact that gdpr is preventing my school from telling staff the names of the students who have tested positive unless we have them on one of our registers. The only other bit of info they have to go on is asking the +ve student who they have been near, and then they tell those students to isolate too.

Which seems to me completely set up to fail. I am often in close contact with students I don't teach and only found out that a student who I had a 30 minute ad hoc UCAS tutorial with is +ve because she responded to my email. I've now had to isolate, but my school didn't inform me because she wasn't in my register. It is a shit show and it's going to get worse.

@noblegiraffe

I rather think that article is cherry picking to make a point about schools in the US some of which have not gone back at all.

I note the complete absence of any mention of England.

For example this bit “Of Belgium’s 8,400 schools, 16 have closed fully or partially because of the coronavirus.” would read rather differently if it were about England. That many schools have easily closed partly or fully in single cities over here.

I noticed the absence of any mention of England too.

I actually subscribe to the WaPo because usually their articles are pretty good, but this one seems lazy and agenda-driven.

I very much dislike any American newspaper stories referring to 'Europe' as if it's one huge monogamous landmass.