Could someone clear up the new six person rule please?

[notevenat20]

I thought the new rule was simple but a lot of MN posters are making suggestions like this:

If you have a children’s party for 6 children in the garden and you are inside, that is legal.

Or

If you have your children asleep upstairs and there are 6 adults downstairs that is legal too.

Does anyone knowledgeable know the answer?

@barcelonabetty in Scotland children under 12 aren't counted in the 6 people, but still maximum of 2 households. So two families of 4 could meet (if children under 12) but you couldn't have a children's party or 3 sets of cousins meeting.

This is what the FAQ says:

From 14 September there will be a legal limit on the number of people you don’t live with you are able to meet. When meeting with people you don’t live with you can socialise in groups of up to 6.

So all about the number of people actually socialising together, nothing about how many people in the building. They could do with clarifying this though.

I think the rule is fairly clear.

My craft group (think mostly retired ladies sitting round a table knitting) of 6 which meets in my garden all sitting 2m apart is technically not allowed if one of my teenage kids who are not going to come anywhere near us is upstairs in bed. Though if said teenager is out meeting her friends it’s fine.

I also think that the attitude to rules in this country and in the police force is generally pragmatic. So should this situation arise I do not propose to either turf dd out of bed or cancel craft group. It might get me into trouble but I am prepared to take that tiny risk...

A clear and simple rule means that when someone is taking the piss by for instance having a party of 12 all clustered around the open patio doors with 6 inside and 6 outside there’s no scope for them to argue the toss but yes it will also throw up situations that are not entirely logical.

Both scenarios will be illegal in England.

As I understand it, the children's party would be ok in Scotland as children are exempt (only host's parents could be there). The adult meet up with children upstairs would be ok if the adults were from one or two households.

In Wales, the children's party would be ok and the adult meet up would be ok if they were from the same extended household.

I think that's right!

it's illegal as there's no way the children would be alone/unattended in either circumstances.

You are allowed more than 6 when everyone is in the same “bubble”. Single adult households can form a bubble with one other household.

So if you are a family of eight, for example, and you have formed a bubble with a granny or grandad that lives alone they can still visit.

BabyLlamaZen The story was that the parents would be inside shouting through the window and any child who needed the toilet could come indoors as there would be fewer than 6 there.

TheGoldenApples.

I think it depends, if the mums are just meeting socially, then yes, 3 mums plus 3 babies would make up the 6. However there are exceptions for organised groups, subjec to various risk assessments and so on, which still allow larger groups of people. So breastfeeding group or indeed other parent and baby group might well still be able to meet if their organization has gone though everything.

Major issue is still social distancing, which still has to be maintained. Possible with babes in arms, somewhat more challenging once they are mobile.

@TheGoldenApplesOfTheSun

So does that mean the maximum number of mums who can meet up for a breastfeeding support group is now 3? Because each one comes along with a baby who counts as a separate person?? Pity the poor woman with twins, she can only ever meet up with one other mum at a time...

I think baby/toddler groups are listed in the exceptions but it would need to be an organised group with a risk assessment etc rather than just meeting in a cafe for coffee and a chat.

I can only assume that those who are saying children can be upstairs, and therefore not included in the 6, never had children that come downstairs to be nosy during a social.

From Monday this will be against the law.

Brie can I ask where you saw that re Wales? Particularly children under 11 being exempt. Only asking because the only way we'll be able to see my Mum from Monday will be by going to visit her as we're a family of 7 but all dc are 10 & under.

These threads are hilarious, they're filled with people saying "FFS the rules are perfectly clear!" followed by a different interpretation of those rules to the person before

These threads are hilarious, they're filled with people saying "FFS the rules are perfectly clear!" followed by a different interpretation of those rules to the person before

Where has that happened on this thread prior to you posting this?

@TheGoldenApplesOfTheSun

So does that mean the maximum number of mums who can meet up for a breastfeeding support group is now 3? Because each one comes along with a baby who counts as a separate person?? Pity the poor woman with twins, she can only ever meet up with one other mum at a time...

As a family of 5 we also share this as it means we can't meet with anyone else !

I understand the rules but is anyone else standing here thinking how insane it is that it would be illegal for me to have my parents and brother in my house at once, I’d have laughed if someone had said this time last year that it would have even been possible to pass a law that restricted us seeing family and friends. I still can’t really believe it.

@toolatetooearly

These threads are hilarious, they're filled with people saying "FFS the rules are perfectly clear!" followed by a different interpretation of those rules to the person before

So true!

There is definitely some interpretation to be had, a gathering is defined in the legislation as "two or more people being present in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any activity with each other."

So I don't see how kids asleep upstairs could be taking part in a gathering.

So I don't see how kids asleep upstairs could be taking part in a gathering.

The problem with this is that following the same reasoning it sounds like 6 people per room would be legal....which I doubt very much.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

I think the conclusion is that we have no idea and will have to wait for further govt guidance. Unless has actually read the legislation and can clear it up.

I think you’re right Noteven - I thought it was clear but it turns out it’s not.

So what if 6 people were at your place and there was a knock at the door from great uncle wilfred all the way from timbuktoo , would you have to evict one of your family or send poor old Wilfed back on his way.

Or what if somone is very very thin and half the weight of a normal person, can you have 2 of these people to make up one whole one and in the reverse if you have a very fat person who weighs twice that of a normal person, would you therefore only be allowed 5

Also if your pets are humanised and wherre clothes, eat cake etc would they count as a person or not.

If you look at the legislation itself rather than the guidance it is much more specific. It hasn't been updated for the 6 person rule yet but the previous legislation prevents a gathering of more than 30 in a private dwelling which includes the garden and grounds. If they follow the same principle then unfortunately it would be illegal to have more than 6 in your house and garden at one time. Before anyone points out that the previous guidance was no more than 2 households, that is correct but it looks like the actual legislation where you could be prosecuted was over 30? We will have to see what they write in the legislation but I do wish they wouldn't just assume we aren't interested in it and try and fob us off with poor guidance that leaves more questions that answers. They cover all the finer details in the legislation. I even know the rules for a house boat now

Agree it won't be clear without the legislation. The guidance clearly says no social gatherings of more than 6. When I have my friends round for drinks at 9pm when the kids are in bed, then there's no way you'd describe the kids as part of the social gathering (and no, they don't tend to come down to say hello, and certainly wouldn't if I told them that they couldn't). If the legislation clarifies that it means no more than 6 in a building then I wouldn't invite more than 2 friends round (there are 4 of us). But if the legislation still refers to 'social gatherings' then I would quite genuinely interpret it as fine to invite 4 friends (or 5 if I lock DH in the bedroom too ). I'm not looking for loopholes, that's genuinely how I'd interpret it.

Presumably the legislation will be subject to legal challenge through the courts. So if someone wanted to run the defence that the self-contained annex counted as a seperate dwelling all the way to the supreme court, then whatever decision was reached would set precedent. Or that the teenager sulking in the treehouse didn't count because they were antisocial. Or whatever.

Or you could just, you know, not have more than 6 people in the house.

Or you could, you know, just not have a social gathering of more than 6. Which is what the new guidance says.