Two households only indoors - do people even know about this?

[JeanBodel]

We recently had to cancel a holiday planned for three families in a cottage, because of the two-household rule. I am surprised to find that hardly any (none?) of DH's family have even heard of this rule, and are holidaying and partying with multiple households at a time.

I thought everyone knew about the max-two-households indoors rule. Possibly people are assuming the restrictions have eased by now?

(Whether the rule is right or wrong is a whole other debate. It is hard to understand the government's relative assessments of risk. But in my profession I am supposed to obey government guidelines. Like MPs [hollow laugh] )

It's partly because so many guidelines keep changing and partly because some of them don't make sense. Technically, my son can sit in a classroom all day with 30 kids, but I can't then invite two of them back for an indoor play date.

The packed premises are breaking the law though. They could be closed down. DD is in London, and only goes to places where you book in advance, and if it is too busy, will walk out. These very packed bars obviously don't book, and the people in them obviously don't care.

I think a lot of people are CHOOSING not to know what the rules are. Then they have an excuse not to follow them.

A frequent reminder would be good, but how many people would listen?

yes the guidelines are advice - you can't be punished for not following them. As far as I know (please correct me someone!) the law (in England) is - no gatherings of over 30, quarantine after travel to designated areas and masks on public transport & indoors public places (and the exceptions must be respected). I think all businesses are allowed to open now aren't they?

All the social distancing etc - just advisory.

The barrister Adam Wagner ( twitter.com/AdamWagner1 ) is good on the regulations, he's not a denier/or #kbf.

Has Scotland changed recently? It was definitely up to eight from five households (and fifteen from five outdoors) a few weeks ago.

I know its 2 households, and we stick to it most of the time however i wouldn't have cancelled the holiday.

Yes @tangoboxing that's right afaik - what is actually the law is pretty minimal these days, compared to Peak Lockdown where there were legal restrictions on when you were permitted to leave your home, had to have a 'reasonable excuse'. Now the law keeps certain types of premises closed, restricts mass gatherings, requires face coverings, and quarantines after certain travel. All the different guidelines from the government about keeping two metres apart or one metre plus, and not mixing with more than one other household indoors, the social bubbles for single adults and so on - that's just the government giving people advice on how they think we should minimise social interaction to manage the spread.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

When they say "you SHOULD/SHOULD NOT" do XYZ that's guidelines, if they say "you MUST/MUST NOT" do XYZ that's the law. Think of highway code!

Given recent experience I think people just don't give a shit about any of the rules or guidelines.

People know but they are choosing not to follow the guidelines anymore.
We as a family are but I know for certain in our wider family we are the exception.

The rule is 2 but most of us are simply taking a sensible approach because mental health matters too. We had dinner with two other couples, one pair wfh, one pair semi shielding, I wfh and dp has own office. We needed that get together for our sanity. We are all going away for the weekend in a couple of weeks, we are adults making a judgement call. I'm not suggesting a house party with 50 guests is a good idea but there's a sensible happy medium.

We have been socialising with my family for a couple of months, technically 4 households but all sensible

Booked a table at the pub for three households

Then i realised we were 3 and queried it and they said it was fine they would put us on two tables...distanced but next to each other

It worked well til we got there and everyone decided to sit wherever they wanted

I was quite stressed about it til i realised that even though there was now a children’s table and an adult table we were still technically only two households on each

The mainstream media have been pathetically useless in keeping the people informed about the guidance/rules, etc. Whenever there's a change, the BBC news in particular, mentions it in passing and then goes onto challenging it and other rules so the message gets lost in the white-noise. Just like that final daily press conference when some pretty serious announcements were made and Kuensberg ignored what Boris had announced and started challenging him about whether we should have locked-down sooner months ago.

All the current guidance/rules is on the gov.uk website - it's only a click away if people could be bothered to read it!

"Problem is people talk about guidelines, rules, and the law. Law says up to 30 can meet together (even in private homes), guidelines say two households. These different ‘rules’ are then listed together in the same Govt document."

Generally the Law means no exceptions and guidelines mean there are exceptions but on saying that more than 2 households meeting for a jolly time isn't one of them.

I think a lot if people are rationalising it to themselves because some of the guidance doesn't seem to make sense. For example 'If I can mix with family A indoors and family B indoors, on the same day, what difference does it make if we're all together?'. I don't necessarily think that makes it OK, but it's not irrational to think that. It's very similar to people who are saying 'if kids are back at school then SD is over and we might as well do xyz other thing', or 'pubs are open so we might as well have the same people at home that we would see in the pub'.

I also think there is a separate group of people who are genuinely quite reasonably risk assessing....living in a low transmission area, all WFH, not travelling outside the local area much etc. and believe it is safe to mix in larger groups, and in some cases it probably is.

I don't mean to say the above is OK, but I don't think it's as simple as 'don't give a sh!t' or 'don't know the rules'. It's a lot more complex than that.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Given recent experience I think people just don't give a shit about any of the rules or guidelines.

And then they are in denial about infection numbers rising again!

Can’t say I did actually, I thought it was 6 people like outdoors! Safe to say I’ve been regularly breaking that rule then 🙈

The one thing I have always pondered is whether children count. My best friend for example is a family of 6. From age 8 to new baby. Can they not see anyone else in their (massive) garden? Or does for example new baby not count?

"For example 'If I can mix with family A indoors and family B indoors, on the same day, what difference does it make if we're all together?'"

Meeting separately reduces the risk of transmissions between family A and family B so reduces overall transmissions.

@Sockwomble

"Problem is people talk about guidelines, rules, and the law. Law says up to 30 can meet together (even in private homes), guidelines say two households. These different ‘rules’ are then listed together in the same Govt document."

Generally the Law means no exceptions and guidelines mean there are exceptions but on saying that more than 2 households meeting for a jolly time isn't one of them.

Not really. The guidelines are advice which we should follow to reduce the potential for infection to spread. If you chose not to follow that advice there's no come back at all - you don't need any reason or to justify it with an 'exception'. If you want to have a jolly time with multiple household that is permitted unless there are more than 30 people (the law).

I'm not sure if that applies to intervention areas though? Is the 'ban' on meeting households in private spaces (house/garden) law in those areas?

The issue most likely stems from the inconsistency. I expect people know, but when we're actively encouraged to sit on trains with multiple strangers, or cram into packed restaurants and pubs with strangers most people will think it's fine to meet your nan and your mum for tea and biscuits.

I turned down an invitation to a house party on these grounds. As I see it people are more likely (obviously not guarenteed ) to follow the rules in public, even if that is inside. Trains are irrelevent as everyone would be wearing face coverings anyway.
FWIW I am a real bore and have also refused to eat inside a restaurant and would prefer to only frequent places where the staff wear masks. Think of the three CCCs (close, crowded, conversations) much more likely at home as bussinesses have to at least give lip service to covid security.

It’s bloody obvious if people actually look at the gov website
People don’t care
It’s over now apparently

We are still sticking to it but feel like the only ones sometimes

tangoboxing you are right although the police could potentially intervene and offer 'advice' to people not sticking to guidelines, no one can be prosecuted for breaking them.

From Japan

I know about it (and am annoyed because we also had to cancel a holiday for the same reason). I don't find the guidance confusing, and was getting irate about people not understanding, until my husband calmly pointed out that my job is literally reading and interpreting government publications.

The two household thing is actually guidance, not legislation, so I don't believe you can actually get in trouble for breaking it (unless you are in one of the locked-down hotspots which has got specific legislation).

For example 'If I can mix with family A indoors and family B indoors, on the same day, what difference does it make if we're all together?'

A massive difference. If family A have it and are infectious, you may get it when you meet them in the morning, but due to the incubation period, you won't pass it to family B in the afternoon. If you are together with family A and B at the same time, A will pass it to both you and family B. See the difference?