Is hand sanitising largely a pointless displacement activity...

[Derbygerbil]

... to convince ourselves and others that we are more in control than we actually are.

Back in March we were all urged to scrub our hands frequently and thoroughly, singing songs as we did so. This didn’t stop Covid from increasing exponentially....

More and more studies seem to confirm that Covid is overwhelmingly via breathing in droplets or aerosols containing the virus, with very little, if any, evidence, for mouth-to-surface-to-surface-to mouth transmission. Even the vulnerable weren’t advised to clean down their shopping after the initial couple of weeks of lockdown!

And yet, there seems still to be so much emphasis of hand sanitising, with this seemingly a central part of many Covid response plans.

I’m not saying that keeping hands clean isn’t a good thing - it is, but the focus doesn’t seem to be so much about actual Covid prevention, but being seen to do something, and the sense of control and confidence this brings.... but with the consequence that people have an exaggerated sense of its importance, either:
a) leading to unnecessary neurotic, compulsive behaviours or;
b) engaging in other far more “risky” social activity because you’ve done “what matters” and sanitised, or even;
c) arguing that masks (whose purpose is to prevent the primary mode of transmission via breath) are rendered useless by the mere touch to the face (despite this would be a highly unusual mode of virus transmission).

Agree that the focus on hand sanitising is a bit mad when there is still such reluctance over masks - which really reduce risk of infection.

Obviously in general good handwashing habits are important.

But for covid it should be masks all the way.

Has anyone seen any studies on risk reduction of masks vs ventilation (vs masks and ventilation)?

It seems to me that schools seem to think ventilation is a magical solution and I don't think it is when kids are sitting closer than 2m for 3 hours at a time. Whereas masks probably would be.

(not a magical solution but a better risk reduction measure)

I don’t know how well this correlates but when I’m trying to work out the relative risks of different situations I think of it as like being around someone who is smoking. So, pretty much okay if you’re outside or just quickly passing them. Unpleasant sitting next to them inside, but a bit better if the window is open, fairly unbearable if you’re in a small room for a long time

And this is what troubles me about classrooms. There’s an accumulation of a number of risk factors

• smallish space
• limited (sometimes no) ventilation
• large numbers
• long duration
• limited/no social distancing
• people speaking
• an age group who are fairly likely to have mild or no symptoms

The mitigation

• handwashing
• extra cleaning

seems insufficient to balance the risk factors

EmilyDickinson

Agree entirely with your post. Schools in other countries have universal mask wearing (even for little kids). And the Israel outbreaks coincided with hot weather and children stopping wearing masks.

I just don't think schools in this country are doing enough. I think children and teachers should be wearing masks as much as possible and there should be as a big push on education around how to do so properly as there was for hand-washing.

I think unfortunately the lack of masks will end up with more disrupted education as schools have to close bubbles / send kids home when there aren't enough teachers / have supply teachers.

Also, in this context, this study suggesting that mask wearing reduces severity of illness for coronavirus is also important.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11606-020-06067-8

I have said from the outset that using antibacterial hand sanitiser against a virus isn't going to get you very far. However if you can't wash your hands, it may help a bit.

But places like hairdressers make you do it - and they have wash basins on hand where you could wash your hands which would be much more effective.

We had to use hand sanitiser before entering a cafe to walk through to their outside terrace - that did seem a bit strange as we weren't going to touch anything. They wanted us to wear masks too (while walking through), even though they were wearing them as beards whenever they thought nobody was looking. But if the covid theatre comforts people so be it. It doesn't hurt me to use hand sanitiser.

I had the same thought the other day regarding hand washing. I wonder what numbers would have been like if people didn’t wash their hand!

I understand what you're saying.

I think it's important . Most because Chris Whitty still seems to out so much importance on it.

But I think public messaging needs to be clearer. Much more focussed on the whole transmission.

Showing the hand washing and how that helps but also showing how masks and SD help.

There was some really good images about SD at the beginning and the animated videos.

I think they need to be on TV more. Much more visible. Especially because you are right - with pubs and schools and gyms etc open they need to make sure people don't think washing their hands means siding up to a friend means they've done their bit!

@cologne4711 Thats why we should all use a hand sanitizer with a min of 65% alcohol/ethanol in it.

Just don't understand any reluctance to use it, its as cheap as chips now and takes seconds.

[quote thecatsatonthewall]@cologne4711 Thats why we should all use a hand sanitizer with a min of 65% alcohol/ethanol in it.

Just don't understand any reluctance to use it, its as cheap as chips now and takes seconds.[/quote]
Yep agree with this. Hand sanitiser isn’t the key, but the alcohol is. But this has been talked about since beginning.

@Derbygerbil

... to convince ourselves and others that we are more in control than we actually are.

Back in March we were all urged to scrub our hands frequently and thoroughly, singing songs as we did so. This didn’t stop Covid from increasing exponentially....

More and more studies seem to confirm that Covid is overwhelmingly via breathing in droplets or aerosols containing the virus, with very little, if any, evidence, for mouth-to-surface-to-surface-to mouth transmission. Even the vulnerable weren’t advised to clean down their shopping after the initial couple of weeks of lockdown!

And yet, there seems still to be so much emphasis of hand sanitising, with this seemingly a central part of many Covid response plans.

I’m not saying that keeping hands clean isn’t a good thing - it is, but the focus doesn’t seem to be so much about actual Covid prevention, but being seen to do something, and the sense of control and confidence this brings.... but with the consequence that people have an exaggerated sense of its importance, either:
a) leading to unnecessary neurotic, compulsive behaviours or;
b) engaging in other far more “risky” social activity because you’ve done “what matters” and sanitised, or even;
c) arguing that masks (whose purpose is to prevent the primary mode of transmission via breath) are rendered useless by the mere touch to the face (despite this would be a highly unusual mode of virus transmission).

Exactly! Have honestly thought this since March. It was just out there to keep us busy. I think it’s why they aren’t paying for cleaning - only ventilation, reduced numbers and more space can help.

I agree hand sanitising is a pointless activity. It is different from washing hands after using the bathroom (which is clearly important).

There is research suggesting that as long as we wash our hands 6 to 10 times a day, we are getting the most of this risk mitigation measure. More frequent washing/sanitising doesn't seem to add much value:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52720089

[quote wintertravel1980]I agree hand sanitising is a pointless activity. It is different from washing hands after using the bathroom (which is clearly important).

There is research suggesting that as long as we wash our hands 6 to 10 times a day, we are getting the most of this risk mitigation measure. More frequent washing/sanitising doesn't seem to add much value:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52720089[/quote]
Oh yes definitely (just want to make it clear I do wash my hands 😂).

If using hand gel reduces my risk of getting Cv by 1% i'll take it.

But to me the question really is... do i believe Devi Sridhar or someone on MN ?

The theoretical small (e.g. 1%) reduction of CV risk should probably be balanced against other potential negative consequences, e.g. encouraging neurotic and compulsive behaviour and - when it comes to children - raising a generation of germaphobes.

I do not use sanitiser on my 3.5 year old DD for this very reason.

My mum was a nurse during two flu pandemics, 1957 and 1968, she drummed into me the importance of sneezing into a hanky or crook of elbow and hand washing when coming in from the shops etc.

Agree, i wouldn't want a small child to be using hand gel but i would be teaching good hand hygiene habits.

@ReadingTeaLeaves

Most people touch their mouth with their hands a LOT. I'm not an epidemiologist, so take what I say with a huge pinch of salt, but really I can see why in all hand washing is such a large component of the messaging, and why it has always been such a major part of infection control in hospitals - in relation to various illnesses regardless of transmission routes.

But the reason hand washing is so important in hospitals is because there is so much touching of people are in close physical contact a lot - nurses and patients and doctors and patients etc. . So washing of hands in between is very important. Also hospitals have a lot.of illness's in them where the primary mode.od transmission is not necessarily airborne.

When you are talking about in the community, most people in public places don't go out of their way to touch each other so whilst handwashing is of course important , I don't believe it is as effective in reducing transmission as it is in hospital. The risk of transmission from close bodily contact is of course much lower in the community to begin with ( excluding within households of course) anyway .

Obviously hand washing helps with reducing the indirect transmission via surfaces but there is quite a bit of evidence that this is a secondary transmission route with airborne illnesses.

I think masks and keeping hand clean both have their place in reducing community transmission of covid but washing your hands for.instance before and after entering a crowded noisy pub for an hour is similar to people carrying around a bunch of dried flowers to sniff in medieval times as protection against the plague .

Everyone wearing masks.in that situation would actually make a difference regardless of mask touching but most people don't want to because it gets in the way of the point of going to a pub. I understand and have no problem with it. I just find it laughable when the people saying they are going to.a crowded pub tell me that are taking all
precautions by washing your hands before going to the pub and after coming home .

I think avoiding indoor crowded placea, wearing masks where that is not possible and keeping your distance from people are far more effective that constant hand sanitising, though I admit I constantly.hand sanitise in between shops and after getting off a bus etc . I just recognise that it is a bit neurotic to.do this. That's ok, we all.have our crosses to bear