If it's OK for Dominic Cummings to break lockdown because he was concerned about the welfare of his child, why isn't it OK for parents to decide when it's safe to send their children back to school?

[jomartin281271]

My message is in the question. What a massive double standard from the government. One law for them, and a completely different law for the masses.

How long exactly, are you going to lock your children up then? A month, 6 months, 6 years?
Are you going to gamble your children's future on there being an effective vaccine soon?
What if there isn't one, what if the human ace has to absorb this risk like it has absorbed countless others and just move on?

What does anyone think is gained by constantly harking back to this

I agree - this is a shit situation we've all to get through. Stop wanting to blame someone.

@Uhoh2020

I really don't think any Judge will be interested "in the Cummings defence"

Exactly! Thats the ultimate childish "well he did it first" defence. And if I was the judge id be more likely to issue a fine if that was the best excuse you could come up with

I agree with this, but also accept that the Cummings affair (plus the 100 U-turns about stuff like face masks and a-level algorithms) chronically undermines trust in what the government are telling us we should or must do.

People are worried, I don’t think anyone imagines that the government can tell anyone something is safe with 100% certainty, but the flip flopping decisions on top of government staff being praised for doing their own thing and breaking official rules, means that those with genuine anxiety (particularly if shielding/vulnerable) are unable to trust what they are told.

To then be blackmailed with being fined or even deregistered from school because of this, leaves some parents with a horrible dilemma. I don’t think many people would try this on just to be a smart arse... what is to be gained by keeping your child away from school if it weren’t for genuine concern?

@PumbaasCucumbas
Yes!!
(to your whole post!)

How can one move on from business that is unfinished?

Or, to put it another way, if Downing Street says "the PM considers this matter is closed" and everyone just says, OK, then, we'll move on, what other governmental behaviours will we begin to tolerate?

I see the usual suspects are on this thread dismissing any view that doesn't exactly tally with their own. Especially the Mr Gum fan.

I suggest that they are the kind of people who need validation for their decisions, and are threatened by anyone who doesn't see life exactly as they do.

I also suggest that we try to tune them out, and take heart from the more moderate and sensible voices on these threads. I for one really appreciate those who don't have skin in the game but try to see both sides.

Home educate if you don’t want your children back at school

It really isn’t that easy, is it? Few people work for the fun of it. We all have bills to pay and a need to work and cover our basic out-goings. Home schooling isn’t an option for the majority on this basis. No parent asked to have a child who was vulnerable to this virus. Parents of vulnerable children already face considerable disadvantage with time off school being in hospital, at appointments, for therapies etc. No parent wants their child to have anything other than a normal childhood, to have them get the education they deserve and have the opportunity to live as normal adulthood as possible. There are some parents currently facing very difficult decisions which could result in their child’s death, curtail their education and thus their life opportunities or risk the roof over their heads by removing a child from school and thus themselves from the work place.

Why do people like you think it’s simple? Why not demonstrate some empathy and be glad it’s not you having to work this one out?

Cummings again what about all the labour and other people who broke the rules ... get over it

What does anyone think is actually gained by constantly harking back to this

I guess some of us feel it'd be useful if those I power realised that there are limits to the blatant hypocrisy that the electorate are prepared to swallow. "Get over it" is pretty much a pass for similar outrages to continue.

Why do people like you think it’s simple? Why not demonstrate some empathy and be glad it’s not you having to work this one out?

Because nobody can have all the cake and eat it. I sympathise with parents who have to make these difficult decisions.
We all have to make difficult decisions. Nobody knows how this world will look 3 months down the line, what further impact there will be to work/ schools and our health.
But I also know as a working parent and for the mental health of my DC my choices are very limited. I don't send them to school and loose my income or send them to school and join the "wait & see " brigade.
I don't send them and they are even more isolated from their friends and have acompromised education, because I need to work to support them financially. That's how I see my options.

Dominick Cummings wasn't part of my decision making

@Ylvamoon. Do you have someone in your household who is considered vulnerable or who was previously shielding? Because if not, you are not making the same decisions as those who do.

@Ylvamoon

Why do people like you think it’s simple? Why not demonstrate some empathy and be glad it’s not you having to work this one out?

Because nobody can have all the cake and eat it. I sympathise with parents who have to make these difficult decisions.
We all have to make difficult decisions. Nobody knows how this world will look 3 months down the line, what further impact there will be to work/ schools and our health.
But I also know as a working parent and for the mental health of my DC my choices are very limited. I don't send them to school and loose my income or send them to school and join the "wait & see " brigade.
I don't send them and they are even more isolated from their friends and have acompromised education, because I need to work to support them financially. That's how I see my options.

Dominick Cummings wasn't part of my decision making

This thread was not in any way about the option you've personally chosen and you didn't have to defend your choice (interesting that that's how you took it though).

The issue also isn't even as simple as 'DC did this so I'm going to so there'. Cummings was defended on the basis that he was understandably concerned about his child. It's not what DC did that's significant here, it's how his behaviour was defended and justified by the government. I think it's reasonable to point out the massive double standard there. If parental concern for children should be taken seriously in one context, why not in this context of parents not being sure whether it's the right time to send their child back?

Well, hypothetically, if this went to court, you wouldn't argue about exactly what Cummings did as I'd agree that is irrelevant.

But if the Prime Minister and various members of the Cabinet went on record in that context saying that parents can of course act reasonably in the best interests of their children, that does extrapolate well to this situation. Parental agency to do what is right for your child is an important concept.

It's very reasonable to be wary of exposure to a pathogen in a pandemic, especially if there is clinical vulnerability in the family. Especially if this is for a short time to assess how things will go with the return of 8-9 million children (plus teachers) to schools. It is unreasonable for the Government to insist that all pupils return without adequate safety measures and in fact it is a dereliction of duty on their part not to make better provision for the clinically vulnerable.

This is a highly infectious pathogen which can quickly grow exponentially in numbers if given half a chance, which it will certainly have in schools. It doesn't matter that current numbers are quite low, the virus is seeded through our community waiting for the opportunity to sprout anew. We have no idea how this agent is going to behave in the British winter, alongside the usual respiratory pathogens.

I have absolutely no intention of deregistering my kids at this stage, why on earth should we. But one child probably won't be going back straight away and the other one will be pulled out of school if local infection numbers increase.

And I am delighted that my GP (and potentially it seems also my MP) are being supportive.

cross post

Government's underhand behaviour happens so frequently because the public are so willing to forgive and forget, or are resigned to the idea that there is little they can do about it. The more we "move on" from government misdeeds, the more they will think they can get away with doing it again. The only time the public is able to hit back is when there is a general election; and to a much lesser extent, deciding how they spend their money (I am exercising this as much as I can at the moment). I don't think we're doing ourselves any favours by being so forgiving of politicians; those suited overpaid clowns work for us, and we must hold them to account. Most of us would lose our jobs sharpish for much less than their amount of deception at work.

We can't exactly say in court "I will not send my children to school, because I am concerned for their well being. This matter is now closed. Ha, now you can't do anything to me.".

For parents who don’t have a vulnerable child (health wise) or who aren’t vulnerable themselves might not get how scary it is sending their child into a crowded school, with lets face it very few safety measures in place.

@ineedaholidaynow

For parents who don’t have a vulnerable child (health wise) or who aren’t vulnerable themselves might not get how scary it is sending their child into a crowded school, with lets face it very few safety measures in place.

This... In march we were told to be extremely careful, then we recieved a shielding letter. In august we could stop shielding bit this letter state this is due to cases currently being low. Letter was full of advice on what is still too risky. These shielded children havent been to a park since march, they havent been to the beach, they havent seen friends or family. The shielding letters said not to come within 2 meters of anyone in the household, to eat seperately etc not practical with a child so the whole house shielded. The specialists still say avoid groups, avoid indoors, do not hug people outside of household, wear masks maintain 2m distance from anyone outside of own household. Imposible in a classroom. But the specialists wont advise on school as it needs to be parents choice. All we ask is that the government stop threatening fines and let us make this choice as we are the ones experiencing the daily worry and will live with the consequences of our choices.

It is easier on parents when children can attend school safely, its easier on parents if we dont have to justify our decisions or concerns, its easier on the childreb if they can participate like their peers.
In non covid times we accept there is always a risk from bugs in schools but it is still early days and much is still unknown about this new virus. Maybe there will become a time when we have no choice but to live with the risk but that isnt today.

If today my child cant hug their grandparent, or they cant visit there grown up sibling, if they cant pop to a toy shop, if thwy cant visit the park as these are deemed to unsafe you cant tell me that schools will be safe in less than a week.

It is ok for parents to decide when it’s safe to send their children back to school. Nothing has been done to affect the rights you have always had as a parent.

The problem isn’t the government saying that children should be back in school, they are absolutely right for that imo, the problem is parents wanting the best of both worlds and to have their children at home but still be supported with education by the school. That attitude is unreasonable and entitled. As has been said many many times on here, it’s fine for parents to decide to keep their children at home, but they will also need to accept that responsibility for their child’s education then becomes theirs, not the schools.

@NailsNeedDoing
It is ok for parents to decide when it’s safe to send their children back to school. Nothing has been done to affect the rights you have always had as a parent
These are, however, unprecedented times.
I have kept ds home since the middle of March, we have shielded him as per government and paediatrician advice, we were told he would be 'extremely clinically vulnerable' to Covid. Now shielding is paused, kids all back to school, most children are off the shielding list....'it's ok, because it's very rare for children to get very ill from Covid..'
Well ds is very rare, we have a hospital passport and overnight bag packed at the best of times....these are not the best of times.
I do not think it is right that my only options as the parent to a medically vulnerable child are
Send in
Deregister (and lose school place and EHCP support)
Get fined.
I think for parents like us, there could have been a more nuanced discussion of how to get our children back to school safely.

I’d be very surprised if in reality families like yours are fined @Bupkis. You clearly have a good reason to keep your ds home, I think the threats of fines are to prevent those parents who have their own anxieties or reasons for not wanting to send their child to school, even when there is no extra risk to that child.

I agree it would be nice to have more discussion about how to get children back in a way that would feel safer for parents like you, but it’s a discussion that would go round and round in circles because the answers to the problem don’t exist.

Unfortunately @NailsNeedDoing, our school have been very clear about pursuing fines, for all families, including the handful who have children with complex medical needs.
We are not the only families in this position, especially where the children are in largely mainstream provision.

I think the government figures that the interests of big business are best served by pretending there is no danger from a further surge of the pandemic and trying to dragoon all kids back to school and all parents back to offices etc so we can all pretend things were as before.

After all, the virus is only a real danger to the elderly and the medically vulnerable, and they are expendable collateral, who cares.

Because your name is Dominic Cummings. Simples.

Remember the government policy is - lie, bluff, blame, lie, sack a civil servant, lie, blame

Because all of the data, all of it, shows that your child is going to be safe in school. So it’s a false equivalence, you are not protecting them by keeping them out of school, the opposite in fact is probably closer to the truth.