Getting Back to Normal - fat chance

[CarlaH]

Seeing a fair bit of support for thinking about things other than the pandemic and trying to get life back to some sort of normal.

Lots of comments about the fallout from things not covid related such as mental health and the economy.

However it seems that even if the government and some members of the population think this is desirable the problem might be the workers themselves.

I keep seeing threads, there's one currently on the Active page, about how dentists are only seeing emergencies in some places. Plenty of comment about how some GP's are still not seeing patients face to face even when it would seem that they should.

One poster is in a terrible state of anxiety and needing a face to face appointment but the GP refuses to see them because they cannot bring themselves to wear a mask. Their mental health is in shreds but a GP is not prepared to see them even at a safe distance at the very least?

Some school teachers fearful, possibly with good reason, about returning to work in September.

Any amount of people saying enough is enough and we just have to live with the virus now and get on with our lives means nothing if you can't actually get people to do their jobs properly for fear of it.

My dentist has been seeing patients since early July, I have not missed an appointment because of covid.

GPs have done phone but I have had blood tests in surgery.

I have had cancer screening and investigations at hospital. All within two week rules etc.

@its an estimate coming from some medical bodies and patient advocacy groups in the uk, usa and some European countries. The NHS havent been collating numbers (surprise fucking surprise) yet so it's hard to know exactly but they are setting up COVID recovery units in some hospitals now (I have my first appointment in a couple of weeks) so hopefully some more accurate data will be forthcoming.

You can search for #1 in 20 on Twitter if you want to know more, or do a search in the press - there have been quite a few articles published now, although I admit it 's an issue that is lower profile than it should be. Wonder why.

There would be hundreds of thousands of people in London alone, but sure, it's a conspiracy to keep it quiet because erm...

My Gp continued to work and see patients throughout this. You were asked when you rang the surgery what the app was needed for and had you any symptoms. You were then allowed to see the doctor if all was deemed fine.

I had covid in March, obviously only allowed phone appointments. Clearly different approaches to the whole crisis in different areas.

Well as I said, no one is officially counting. You seem very determined in it not being true but by all means give me your figure.

“ According to the latest research, about one in 20 Covid patients experience long-term on-off symptoms. ”
Full article here
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/weird-hell-professor-advent-calendar-covid-19-symptoms-paul-garner
Just one of the many sources quoting that number

THisbackwithavengeance

As a civil servant, nobody I know is “refusing” to go back. We’ve been told to WFH.

@fluffykittens.

I can do approx a third of my work at home. Rest of it I see people.

You are correct in that a great number of public paid workers can WFH. But for many of us, it's not possible.

@sirfredfredgeorge

Where's the risk (to the doctor) in doing virtual consultations?

The risk would be in getting something wrong, because they don't feel confident enough consulting in that environment. They may well be appropriately indemnified from legal or medical repercussions, but they would still have their own feelings of guilt and failure to deal with.

So no, obviously no covid risk, but it's not entirely without risk. However the risks are low, and would be significantly balanced against the risk to the patient of not getting a consultation.

So you are saying a GP should not do an online consultation just because he/she might get it wrong? I don’t really understand what you are getting at. In person is too risky for the GP and virtual is too risky for the GP. Where does the patient appear in this?

My husband had a blood test recently. He got the impression that the nurses were not happy that the GPs were not yet in the practice. There were 2 people in the waiting room. I have a routine appointment at my dentist next week, instead of a 20 minute appointment, it is now 30 minutes. My son has just started back at work 2 days a week, he was the only one of around 25 that was has gone back, the others don’t feel safe, although they have massive office space.

I agree with Bigchoc that most working aged people have totally overestimated their risks of the virus. And that includes risks of serious health implications not just dying. Living in London, I know lots of people who had the virus in March and April, some of whom felt very ill at the time. Not one has any side-effects now that they know of. But all were under 60, so this is what you would expect.

By contrast, people seem totally oblivious to the economic implications and the consequences for young people. I see threads i mumsnet claiming that lay-offs are just using covid as an excuse. WTF???? How do you think firms can survive with no income?

The furloughing scheme has been essential but has allowed people to not appreciate the economic meltdown. A friend of mine runs a small business and furloughed all his staff. He wanted to bring some back to work and called one guy to start the next week. The employee expressed reluctance as it was his birthday that week. My friend made him redundant and took back another employee instead.

There seems little thought to the plight of young people entering the workplace - how are they supposed to learn when they are stuck in their bedroom? How are they supposed to meet life partners when they have to social distance even though their personal risk is statistically zero?

Unless there is a vaccine soon, I do think that we will look back and think that shutting down the world to save some of the elderly - as the vast majority of over 80s will still recover - was madness.

I am a carer, worked through the entire shit show, contracted (fortunately) a mild case of Covid but saw 32 people die, many positive but unaffected residents (bizarrely people in their 90s with a myriad of underlying health problems included) - currently workplace is Covid free and we are all tested every week.

The virus is unpredictable, mostly harmless but potentially catastrophic - we have yet to learn A LOT.

We cannot economically sustain an ongoing shutdown of everything - I am also passionate about some type of school attendance resuming in September - there are 12/13 yr old kids on my estate developing class A drug habits - not all parents are capable/responsible (often not their fault) and these kids need the routine and structure of school - this is SO IMPORTANT.

Simplistic but I would suggest we all eat well and exercise (tedious but bloody effective), drink less booze and continue to protect older and vulnerable people.

We cannot hide away forever and I think people will slowly gain confidence to do more - I also think regional lockdowns will avoid a huge second wave.

DH and I were talking about this at the weekend. The NHS happily treats people who chose to make themselves ill through smoking, drinking, drugs, overeating etc. Why can't people who choose to accept the risks of catching covid be allowed to go out and do what they want?

As a public sector worker, we have been told to continue WFH for the foreseeable. I'd say that we are not sitting around doing nothing though! I've been working right through, although my workload did decrease significantly for a time because another agency all but shut down.

The difference between being allowed to smoke and being allowed to catch covid is that one primarily affects the person directly, the other could affect many other people. Acting "normally" in a pandemic will lead to other people dying. It will be hard to convince the more vulnerable and people who care for them to join in if they think that most people want to act normal and don't worry about getting the virus.

@Fatted

DH and I were talking about this at the weekend. The NHS happily treats people who chose to make themselves ill through smoking, drinking, drugs, overeating etc. Why can't people who choose to accept the risks of catching covid be allowed to go out and do what they want?

As a public sector worker, we have been told to continue WFH for the foreseeable. I'd say that we are not sitting around doing nothing though! I've been working right through, although my workload did decrease significantly for a time because another agency all but shut down.

Because you aren’t going to pass your nicotine/drug/alcohol/food addiction on to the health workers you expect to help you!

What we know about the virus is still developing. Expecting people to sign up to getting it, possibly numerous times, when we don’t fully understand it and there is no solid prevention or cure is not acceptable.

I’m pretty sure I had it in March, contracted from the school I work in. No one was being tested in the community then so I don’t know for sure but I had all the expected symptoms. For me, it resulted in two days and nights of absolutely hellish fever which didn’t improve with paracetamol. Very sore and achey. Then a week of being bed bound and several weeks of severe tiredness. 5 months on, I still have very achey bones, especially in my ribs (maybe this isn’t connected but it’s noticeable).

What happens if I get it again? Will it be worse because I already had it? Even if it’s the same, I’m really unhappy with the idea that I might just end up getting that every few months.

I know people want normality. But things aren’t normal.

That is all fine if you can actually stop the virus or get a vaccine very soon. If not, then we are going to have to learn to live with it and accept that it will be circulating in society indefinitely even if at a low level.

This means we really need to think about whether halting basic dentistry, much of the NHS, schools, universities, all the things that make life worth living indefinitely is really worth it

Dinto - there has not been a single case anywhere in the world of someone getting it twice. And even if it is possible to get it twice, all the expectations are is that you would have a very mild or asymptomatic case as your body knows how to deal with it.

When Europeans arrived in North America, the common cold was devastating for native americans as they had no previous exposure. They now are the same as us.

@THisbackwithavengeance
Absolutely. My husband is self employed. If he doesn't work, he doesn't get paid. If we are locked down, he doesn't get paid. People don't seem to grasp the absolute nightmare this is for people working in jobs that they can't act like princesses in

@Eyewhisker

I know that. They also told us at one point children couldn’t get it or spread it, which is being refuted now. We were told not to wear masks and now we are. We were told ibuprofen is OK, and then it wasn’t, now it might be again. Are reinfections being carefully studied at this time? No authority is aware of my potential infection or that of many other people.

You’ll have to excuse me if I’d rather be cautious with my health and well-being in the circumstances.

The only people who seem not to grasp the financial implications are the government who isn't prepared to put the money where it's needed . If this was war they wouldn't stop buying bombs because they were worried about future debt.

Who remembers their tax bills balling once we paid off the second world war? No one, because the debt we ran up then had such a marginal impact on people's lives.

midge - I presume you have forgotten that rationing went on for years after the war?

The government should not pay people to stay at home and not work because they suffer from unusual anxiety and caution. If they are deemed genuinely clinically vulnerable fine but this should be based on updated info not on the initial shielding list which has been shown to be too wide.

@THisbackwithavengeance

Most of the people who are refusing to go back to work normally are civil servants, employed by local Government or in heavily unionized industries like railways. They know they can dig their heels in and still get paid full salary regardless.

Unsurprisingly, those who are self employed or in the private sectors are less fussy.

I'm a civil servant and so of my more workshy colleagues are taking the piss big time.

Really? I am too and we’re working as usual. We can’t be furloughed and civil servant jobs can usually be done from home. The only exceptions are people with children and no childcare but most of those are working near normal hours. Evenings and weekends. Or swapping care with partners. I can’t imagine how a civil servant can take the piss? Like what is the actual excuse for not working.

@Karenovirus

Opinion on what? I am not sure what your point of discussion is.

Yes, some people are more frightened than others. I would venture that for the vast majority of people (ie not those over 85s with dementia etc) it's because they have a poor understanding of relative risk.

This is what we get for being a nation that is generally very poor at maths.

The same names crop up frequently demanding that we consider the financial/mental health implications of not returning to normal given what they regard as a tiny threat to the majority of people.

I would like to have heard from them how they think we can return to normal or near normal if we have some GP's/dentists/teachers and other workers who are not prepared to work normally.

Are they suggesting, for example, that GP's stop refusing to see people who are unable to wear masks? Are they advocating legislation to force them to do more than they are currently doing. (Other professions are available).

That's the sort of discussion I was interested in.