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Original poster

Oxford Vaccine Masks Symptoms But Doesn't Stop Spread?

27 replies

roses2 · 01/08/2020 20:03

I've been following the Oxford Vaccine case with great interest. An article published yesterday talks about testing on monkeys which showed the monkeys didn't develop the virus but did show signs if infection in their airways

www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/30/897267139/vaccine-candidate-delivers-protection-in-a-single-shot-in-monkeys?t=1596308285249

None of the vaccinated monkeys developed disease, but all of them still showed signs of active infection in their upper airways.........if it doesn't prevent infection of the upper airway, it means a vaccinated person could still spread the disease.

If I've understood the article correctly it means it turns monkeys (people) into asymptomatic carriers?! That's not good at all!

OP posts:
headshoulderskneestoes · 01/08/2020 20:11

Would that mean you have to be vaccinated to not develop symptoms but all vaccinated people could infect a non vaccinated person? So everyone needs to be vaccinated?

Crazycatlady83 · 01/08/2020 20:14

Wasn’t that because they flooded the monkeys airways (which wouldn’t happen in real life) and therefore had no scientific merit?

Sunshinegirl82 · 01/08/2020 20:14

I'd make two points I think. Firstly the monkey trial was carried out specifically to ensure that having been vaccinated and then exposed to the virus the monkeys didn't have a worse outcome (this was an issue with some vaccine candidates for SARS).

As a result they absolutely flooded the monkeys with virus, they put it in their eyes, mouth, nose and into their lungs. Obviously this would not happen under normal exposure and Adrian Hill (who is running the Oxford vaccine) has said this might explain the presence of the virus in the monkey's noses. As I understand it the team remain hopeful the vaccine will prevent infection.

The other point is that if the vaccine means that people are infected but never get very unwell that will still be a significant improvement on our current position at least in the short term.

It is likely that we will improve on whatever the first generation vaccines can achieve as time goes by.

Triangularbubble · 01/08/2020 20:15

If everyone was asymptomatic though, who cares if we get Covid? A vaccine that, for example, meant the elderly were asymptomatic, even if they spread it to younger unvaccinated people, would potentially still be well worth having.

No one really knows yet anyway, but the Oxford team point out they gave the monkeys an enormous dose of virus, far higher than you’d get from normal interaction as a person. And I think they only had one dose of vaccine. We just need to wait and see what the trials in people reveal.

ChristmasinJune · 01/08/2020 20:18

I know how badly we need this vaccine and I think the Oxford team are doing a great job. But every time I read about this stage of the trial I can't help but feel incredibly sad for the monkeys.

tobee · 01/08/2020 20:23

I thought this was old news?

BamboozledandBefuddled · 01/08/2020 20:27

But every time I read about this stage of the trial I can't help but feel incredibly sad for the monkeys

I'm with you on that.

Original poster
roses2 · 01/08/2020 20:30

@Crazycatlady83

Wasn’t that because they flooded the monkeys airways (which wouldn’t happen in real life) and therefore had no scientific merit?
It means everyone worldwide would need to be vaccinated every 12 months - because that is the estimated duration of protection the vaccine has - which just won't happen globally.
OP posts:
LunaNorth · 01/08/2020 20:31

Poor monkeys Sad

Sunshinegirl82 · 01/08/2020 20:35

@roses2

No it won't, but it will probably happen in a lot of countries. With assistance from wealthier countries I hope we can get some worldwide coverage.

They won't stop developing vaccines once they have one that works. I'm fully expecting the first generation to be good enough to tide us over and improve things dramatically and hopefully they will improve on what those initial vaccines can achieve.

TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 01/08/2020 20:42

My understanding is they were given a really massive dose of the virus. Much bigger than a human is exposed to.

And yes, poor monkeys.

There is almost no chance of any vaccine containing this pandemic totally - what is more likely is it saves many lives and reduces the severity of the virus in many serious cases. People will still unfortunately die of it just as many elderly die of flu each year. The immune system responds differently to vaccines when people are very old, for starters. But it's still looking really positive.

HeadAndShouldersPerson · 01/08/2020 20:42

Did the monkeys die?
It seems wrong that other creatures should suffer for our wellbeing. I suspect that happens for many of our vaccines and medicines.

oldbagface · 01/08/2020 20:46

Place marking

Crazycatlady83 · 01/08/2020 20:48

But that’s simply not true. The reason the monkeys got infected in the manner they did, is because they flooded the monkeys with the virus. This wouldn’t happen in normal circumstances. In normal circumstances it has been found to trigger a antibody response (together with a T cell response - which is very promising) We are waiting the stage 3 trial results. You are quoting old news.

Triangularbubble · 01/08/2020 20:52

“Did the monkeys die?”

I believe they were euthanised and dissected. Sorry.

ChristmasinJune · 01/08/2020 21:32

@Triangularbubble

“Did the monkeys die?”

I believe they were euthanised and dissected. Sorry.

Oh no! Sad
PuzzledObserver · 01/08/2020 21:36

@LunaNorth

Poor monkeys Sad
It means everyone worldwide would need to be vaccinated every 12 months - because that is the estimated duration of protection the vaccine has - which just won't happen globally.

How do you get that from the monkey trial??

Everybloodybottleunderthesun · 01/08/2020 21:37

All pharmaceutical drugs require testing on animals by law, there is no way around it (yet) unfortunately- there are however many ways companies are reducing the requirement to a much much smaller level using new technologies

PuzzledObserver · 01/08/2020 21:37

That wasn’t supposed to include a quote - sorry,

Everybloodybottleunderthesun · 01/08/2020 21:40

@PuzzledObserver flu-type viruses mutate, the ‘normal’ seasonal flu vaccine changes every season and each year’s vaccine is based on predictions

Qasd · 01/08/2020 21:54

This isn’t a flu type virus it’s a coronavirus and so far shown to be quite stable Regarding mutation. Bigger issue is that typically theIr is lack of lasting immunity for coronavirus in humans, are bodies are not good at remembering we have had them so we get them again if this was true for covid it will make vaccine development challenging but that was not an issue for investigation in this trail.

PuzzledObserver · 01/08/2020 22:03

As @Qasd says, this isn’t a flu virus. The duration of immunity isn’t known yet, but there are some encouraging signs based on similarity to SARS:

Keepdistance · 01/08/2020 22:23

I wonder if they might find men respond to the vax more strongly

SaskiaRembrandt · 02/08/2020 07:24

@Keepdistance

I wonder if they might find men respond to the vax more strongly
Possibly not. Typically women produce a much stronger immune response to vaccines, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't give men adequate protection.
Climbingallthetrees · 02/08/2020 07:30

This monkey stuff was first published months ago, so I’m not sure how you’ve just heard of this if you’ve been following the trial closely? It’s not what people hoped it would show in the monkeys, but there are possible explanations.