School re-opening under threat

[jomartin281271]

Headline in the London Evening Standard today that this new surge could threaten re-opening of schools. I'm not surprised. The government know that it's not safe to open schools under their current guidance. Cramming children, teachers and admin staff into those tiny spaces could cause a catastrophe. I feel sorry for teachers. Most of them are really committed to the job and their lives are being put at risk. Scary times.
www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-second-wave-schools-september-a4511516.html

@Regulus

Maybe calm down a little?

A simple point of view and evidence and you 'explode'.

Have a lovely day

@Flagsfiend

Good points. I noticed the comments of Mark Woolhouse, an infectious disease epidemiologist, who said children are minimally involved in the transmission of the virus. However, I hear your point that just because they haven't found the evidence that they spread yet it doesn't mean that they don't... being a positive individual and seeing that when schools opened transmission rates didn't jump all over the place and seeing the damage done to children with missing education/social interaction etc the risk/risk balance on the side (for me) of September no social distancing in schools and back as much as possible as before (naturally hand washing etc increased).

For those thinkingthe schools have implemented safe protocols, I'll ask you this:

How many toilets are available in your school, and what is the protocol to using it?

Toilets and transportation (high schools) is the big issues that will be very hard to solve....

Again. Define "children".....

There is no question and plenty of evidence that over 10s do trasmit it just as adults...

I've seen plenty of evidence children tend to get milder symptoms and are much less likely to be severely ill, but have yet to see any reputable studies proving low transmission. agree, especially for 10+

www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/health/coronavirus-children-schools.html

news report of very big s korean epidemiological study showing 10-19 transmit MORE than adults. For younger kids they conclude they transmit less (but not zero!)

I've personally lost trust that government paid scientists have the population's best interests at heart. I trust Independent sage more than sage. I think there may be huge political influence on sage.

being a positive individual and seeing that when schools opened transmission rates didn't jump all over the place

Even as a positive person you can't deny that when schools opened to more students there was an increase in cases. Yes it didn't jump all over the place but there was a definite increase.

@lua, excellent question.

Our school has around 1250 on roll.

We have 3 toilet blocks with 6 toilets in each. Each toilet block has 3 sinks.

Students have a 20 minute break and a 40 minute lunch.

We also sent home a ‘jolly’ letter about increased hand washing.

I'm going back to a huge High School in September (HLTA here).
On paper, whilst confusing, our "Covid Safe" new plan for the school day looks good.
But when you dig a bit deeper you realise that it's actually farcical.

For example - the different year groups come into school and leave at staggered times. They all start P1 at the same time - so holding zones have been created - so, the early ones will be on the premises at 8.35 a.m. and wait in their zone for 25 mins. Whilst not ok, it could work - but hang on - lots of these students come in by bus (about a quarter of our almost 2K intake are bussed in). And the buses will have a mix of all year groups. Also, we have a lot of siblings at our school - so a year 7 might live with a year 9 and year 11 - at school they will have staggered entry and exit - be kept apart (even our huge playing field is being adapted to have different zones for each year group), but they'll obviously be going to the same home. Little year 7, who is walking home with older sibling, will have to wait for 15 mins in the holding zone at the end of day to walk home (across busy road) with elder sibling. So, all in all, he's spent 50 mins of his school day in a holding zone. Not great is it?

And our bubbles - we will have bubbles of over 350 kids. Ridiculous.

I could fill this thread (I won't - promise) with loads of other things that are not going to work, but that's just a taste of it.

The guidance isn't about us doing anything to make a real difference - it's to look like we are.

They can stick hand sanitiser and wipes in classrooms and have all the kids facing the teacher in rows until the cows come home. But those rows are squashed into small classrooms. We are in poorly ventilated buildings, with few sinks, and unreliable hot water. We always, always, have kids sent in unwell (and did so with high temps/coughs in March), and will continue to do so. We sent kids home, only to have them returned the next day, still unwell.

A perfect storm.

The biggest scandal here is how the government is finding money for all sorts of things that should be less essential than schools (eat out to help out) but will not provide any additional money to allow schools to open in a safer way.

I guess it's because the average MP sends their kids to private school - who have the room and resources to open much more safely.

We are a household of teachers and school aged kids here- 100% of our daily lives are school based and that’s true for a massive majority of my friends and relatives (sister is a teacher, best friend married to one, cousins, aunts and uncles are teachers). I haven’t spoken to a single one of these 100+ people who believes for a minute that schools- primary, secondary, whatever- will remain open for very long this autumn. As soon as everyone goes back inside, the heating is on, kids are mixing within their (massive fucking) “bubbles” it’s going to go to absolute hell. And we were all talking about that before this what looks like the European second wave started materialising.

@Ickabog

but there wasn't a jump when the schools reopened... there were a few cases in different schools but as for a country as a whole it just didn't happen at all. The curve has flattened and death rates falling. In our area there have been no deaths for over a month and no cases. There are areas of the country (currently up North) where there have been spikes in some areas.

When there have been spikes and it has been traced back there have been factories with adults crammed together and big meet ups with adults but very few to schools reopening to some year groups several months ago?

For those saying that children don't spread Covid, the israel example is instructive.

www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2020.25.29.2001352#html_fulltext

I also gather that a significant number of Australian schools are now closed due to outbreaks.

It is hard to get good information on in-school transmission, because obviously during lockdown schools have been largely shut, and where schools are pen this has been in a limited way with anti-Covid measures (unlike what is planned in England).

So at best, the case for in-school transmission between children and children, and between adults and children & vice versa, under the conditions proposed for England's schools is currently moot.

I would suggest that the studies selected by a pressure group are likely to be those that specifically support their viewpoint, and that the reality is more balanced once specific circumstances (numbers; community infection rate; mask wearing) are taken into account.

I doubt they'll be back tbh. Nobody is socially distancing a foot let alone a min of a metre, ill fitting masks and people whipping them off as soon as they can, myself included.

'Cases' is a red herring. It doesn't matter how many cases, but the severity of symptoms, For most people the risk is tiny.Evidence of statistical risk is become no more sophisticated every day. Schools must open, without any SD or mark nonsense. If people choose not to work in the reality of the environment they be need to look for alternative jobs, not try to use fearmongering to get things the way they have decided suits them. And for those who bleat 'but teachers have to give a term's notice, well I bet would surely be happy to see the back of a doom/monger as soon as possible. In these extraordinary times I sure you could leave right now.
The real danger is those who don't want to put their salary where their mouth is but decide cynically to develop 'symptoms' for themselves or their DC to stay of work, or who decide yo 'go off with stress'. Think those are likely t ok be a tiny minority anyway, and will already be know malingerers so the leadership will already know who they are.

I find the whole Mark Woodhouse comments very frustrating. He states there is no evidence of children spreading it to teachers, however this would be pretty hard to prove - how can we prove where anyone caught it from? Teachers and students have caught it, but we don't know where from. He doesn't quote or give any evidence to back up his claims.

If the government wanted to they could reduce confirmed cases to zero overnight by simply stopping testing - no evidence of cases anymore. I hope we'd all agree that would be ridiculous as absence of testing doesn't mean there are no cases. I feel statements about school spread are similar, we don't have evidence and therefore we don't know. September is going to be a big experiment. On the plus side by October half-term we should have plenty of evidence either way. But at what cost?

very few to schools reopening to some year groups several months ago

This is the point. The September re-opening will not be 'to some year groups', allowing small groups and social distancing (and in the summer, which allowed plenty of time outside), It is to everyone, all at once, no social distancing, crowded transport, crowded corridors, crowded toilets, crammed into under-ventilated crowded classrooms.

@motherrunner - Exactly. I challenge anyone here, saying that school return plans are safe to provide appropriate ratios of toilets to kids, or to tell me the policy that will be used....(including how often during the day such toilets will be cleaned)

DC school is actually being very positive about the return, but mentioned that as of today they have been unable to increase the number of buses..... That means a bunch of teenagers packed as sardines in and out....

@lifeafter50

'Cases' is a red herring. It doesn't matter how many cases, but the severity of symptoms, For most people the risk is tiny.Evidence of statistical risk is become no more sophisticated every day. Schools must open, without any SD or mark nonsense. If people choose not to work in the reality of the environment they be need to look for alternative jobs, not try to use fearmongering to get things the way they have decided suits them. And for those who bleat 'but teachers have to give a term's notice, well I bet would surely be happy to see the back of a doom/monger as soon as possible. In these extraordinary times I sure you could leave right now. The real danger is those who don't want to put their salary where their mouth is but decide cynically to develop 'symptoms' for themselves or their DC to stay of work, or who decide yo 'go off with stress'. Think those are likely t ok be a tiny minority anyway, and will already be know malingerers so the leadership will already know who they are.

Jesus. You spread sweetness and light wherever you go don't you? What an unpleasant post.

Schools must open, without any SD or mark nonsense. If people choose not to work in the reality of the environment they be need to look for alternative jobs, not try to use fearmongering to get things the way they have decided suits them

When were you last in a school?

MoreListeningLessChatting There was an increase in cases when schools opened to more students. That's a fact. Yes it wasn't a large increase, but student numbers were still low and spread out compared to what will happen in September. More students in the classroom led to more cases. The same will be true in September. To say otherwise is just trying to deny the truth of the situation.

I am spending this 'holiday' prepping my various Teams for next term. Homework for each week is already sorted plus quizzes etc.

I am ready to be at school but I will be ready to have some students in lesson and some out of lesson, blend ready and lockdown ready. Quite frankly who really knows if there will be a second major wave, local lockdown, staffing crisis, another virus emerging or nothing happening.

but there wasn't a jump when the schools reopened... there were a few cases in different schools but as for a country as a whole it just didn't happen at all.

Even if true, only years 1 and 6 plus key worker kids went back.....

@lifeafter50 - thanks for the support! It is always good to get feedback on what other parents think about us.

@Ickabog

MoreListeningLessChatting There was an increase in cases when schools opened to more students. That's a fact. Yes it wasn't a large increase, but student numbers were still low and spread out compared to what will happen in September. More students in the classroom led to more cases. The same will be true in September. To say otherwise is just trying to deny the truth of the situation.

Do we know the direction of transmission in these outbreaks in england since reopening of schools? I have not seen this but maybe someone else has? Child to adult? Adult to child? Adult to adult? It is hard to say if children are sparking the outbreaks without this info.

Exactly. Absolute maximum of 1/2 children in primary (limited by group sizes, even if not by year groups), and no more than 1/14th of secondary (1/4 each of 2 out of the 7 year groups, keyworker numbers tended to be tiny)

I think it should be obvious that the infection risks, particularly in secondary, are going to be hugely higher when the number of pupils in the building jumps 14-fold!