Is this school advice wrong??

[MrsVMorgan]

I feel very uncomfortable with this advice from school (primary) in regards to the class bubbles and isolation.

The bubble of staff and children will only have to iolsate if 3 or more members of the bubble test positive. If only 1 or 2 do, the bubble will carry on as normal until other staff or children show symptoms.

This can’t be right surely? Can anyone point me towards any guidance that confirms this is correct or infact incorrect? I can’t find anything specific but wondered if I’d missed it in the guidance.

That's the trouble there is only 'guidance'. All schools are interpreting how they see fit. My own school is allowing staff to flit from bubble to bubble to accommodate PPA cover, part-timers and 1-2-1 relief. When I queried it, apparently 'it's allowed'. We might as well say sod it and go back as normal.

Sorry, I realised my own rant doesn't help your situation at all!

www.gov.uk/government/publications/actions-for-schools-during-the-coronavirus-outbreak/guidance-for-full-opening-schools

From this guidance:

'The health protection team will work with schools in this situation to guide them through the actions they need to take. Based on the advice from the health protection team, schools must send home those people who have been in close contact with the person who has tested positive, advising them to self-isolate for 14 days since they were last in close contact with that person when they were infectious. Close contact means:

direct close contacts - face to face contact with an infected individual for any length of time, within 1 metre, including being coughed on, a face to face conversation, or unprotected physical contact (skin-to-skin)
proximity contacts - extended close contact (within 1 to 2 metres for more than 15 minutes) with an infected individual
travelling in a small vehicle, like a car, with an infected person
The health protection team will provide definitive advice on who must be sent home.'

There has been a confirmed case at my sons school this week. The whole bubble including the teacher are self isolating for 14 days.

If they enter another bubble they have to remain 2m distance from everyone or wear PPE otherwise they are not separate bubbles surely?!? That totally doesn't make sense and i would question it.

It’s in the new guidance for schools for September - don’t close the bubble if only one case but you do if 2 or more cases in the bubble in 14 days.
Makes no sense at all!

I think it's after 2 so the 3rd one triggers the bubble popping. But yes absolutely ridiculous and can only hope

• schools ignore this as above
• let parebts know if there is a case so they can keep the child home.
• by the time 3 have it probably everyone in a class of 30 has been exposed. Because 25% false neg too. So 1/4 chance of each coming up neg by 4 people you would only have 3 cases when there are 4. I would think this is higher in children as they must be hard to swab.

I wonder if it's mire directed at secondary where they might not be in such close contact. I like the way they have this procedure whilst also expecting ecv and cv staff and kids back in. Also if supposedly you are contagious for 2 presymptomactically and 7 when ill then youve already at least 2 say at school. Then the next case has 2+ etc so thats 4 days. Then consider above false neg and also people who are spreading but never get symptoms. Ideally you would shut a bubble as soon as a pupil has any symptoms and all wait for the test to come back. Any other way and you are weeks behind.

Okay yes probably 2nd one pops it. But still that is a lot of delay

I worry about this. You have pubs closing after 1 case but bubbles stay open until you have 2 cases by then how many asymptotic cases and infections will you have? Even in smallish secondaries you have bubbles of 200. Secondary pupils are rubbish at SD during break times and between lessons ; even keyworker cohorts of 20 break it routinely when moving around.

When they are all stuck indoors sat next to each other for hours it's hard to not see cases increasing if this is a delay waiting for evidence of multiple cases. I suppose it will prove one way the other if small kids/ teenagers transmit the virus I suppose.

Anecdotally, a friend who works in a school has half the staff coughing with headaches and sore throats. No self isolating is happening, no doubt they'll all limp through the last few days until Wednesday and then go home and be ill.

What is written above about only asking others in the group to self isolate if there are more than two cases is not correct. The guidance says if a child or member of staff tests positive, the local health protection team will advise the school that anyone who has been in close contact with the person who has tested positive must self isolate.

It then goes on to talk about it there are 2 or more confirmed cases it is considered an outbreak and wider groups may be closed

Anecdotally, a friend who works in a school has half the staff coughing with headaches and sore throats. No self isolating is happening, no doubt they'll all limp through the last few days until Wednesday and then go home and be ill.

And that might just be end of term + year exhaustion. Or another bug.

I'm looking forward to the end of term (first day of holiday 22nd here). Then I can take a break from pretending to be a teacher.

I've reached maximum eye-rolling so far as the schools - kids - virus triangle goes.

@LizzyButton

>Anecdotally, a friend who works in a school has half the staff coughing with headaches and sore throats. No self isolating is happening, no doubt they'll all limp through the last few days until Wednesday and then go home and be ill.

And that might just be end of term + year exhaustion. Or another bug.

I'm looking forward to the end of term (first day of holiday 22nd here). Then I can take a break from pretending to be a teacher.

I've reached maximum eye-rolling so far as the schools - kids - virus triangle goes.

Hopefully, there isn't a way of knowing that will be of any use - it's not worth testing them as far as the school are concerned.

It's really hard to take time off sick as a teacher because there is often nobody to cover you, and intentionally or otherwise, you are often made to feel guilty by SLT. This is especially true since schools can no longer afford supply teachers and it will be even worse with the bubble system.

I think SLT in schools are going to have to be insistent about staff with any symptoms taking the time off to get tested, regardless of the logistics in class. We teachers are going to have to change our normal "carry on regardless" attitude.

Guidelines for September from DC primary state that if they have symptoms they shouldn’t come to school/will be sent home. Class will isolate for 14days and child with symptoms needs a test. If positive class continues to isolate for 14days but if negative class returns but child who had test needs to continue to isolate for minimum 7days or until symptoms have subsided. I assume that’s incase if false negative. Does it sound right though?

It's the second case that triggers bubble closure. Already seen how it works at a school near us.

First child had a sore throat on the Friday, better over the weekend, ill on Monday, informed school and went for a test. Tested positive. Bubble stayed open. Second child reported ill Monday night. Bubble shut on Tuesday. The second child tested negative, so the bubble reopened on Wednesday and was still open with no further symptoms from anyone by yesterday.
It is about minimising the spread and squashing potential transmission when it arises, while simultaneously trying to let schools get back to some kind of routine where proper teaching and learning can take place for the greatest number of children. So some staff are allowed to move between bubbles because that is necessary to the running of the school.

Class doesn't isolate if someone has symptoms (otherwise this would mean classes almost constantly off - lots of little ones get coughs and temperatures that are not coronavirus). If a child develops symptoms then they and their household isolate, they have a test, if positive that is when public health will advise the rest of the class to isolate. If negative the child recovers and returns to school

Class doesn't isolate if someone has symptoms (otherwise this would mean classes almost constantly off - lots of little ones get coughs and temperatures that are not coronavirus). If a child develops symptoms then they and their household isolate, they have a test, if positive that is when public health will advise the rest of the class to isolate. If negative the child recovers and returns to school

Scarby then that school have not followed the guidance. Or they have had circumstances that meant that their local health protection team felt the class didn't need to isolate. Perhaps the child was not within the infectious period at school

At the moment if one tests positive the bubble bursts but this changes in September and the bubble bursts if 2 in 14 days tests positive. 🤔

Thank you for the clarity on it all. It does worry me as there’s going to be 60 children and 12 staff over the week (7 of the 12 staff are in multiple bubbles).

If I was working in a bubble where someone tested positive-I would be concerned. Our classrooms are tiny and the windows don’t open properly. The room would have me, 32 children and a TA inside them-with very little chance if social distancing.

If one person tested positive-the chances of everyone else getting it are high and it seems desperately stupid to wait any further amount of time before deciding to close it, keeping that bubble together even longer in very close quarters!

I think in September, especially in secondary school, the bubbles are probably going to be whole year groups - so any thing between 90 - 210? children plus staff. Having to send all them home after one case would never work - and probably unnecessary as some would never be in close contact with each other. Two cases seems reasonable.

The bubbles are irrelevant

• public transport
• siblings
• childminders
• out of school activities

the guidance is just useless

Well that is the other q is will other activities
Scouts/gymnastics/swimming lessons
Run?
I mean my dc in 2 swimming lessons at different pools with maybe more than 10 kids.
We havent done gymnastics but i imagine again 10 and touching all the equipment inside...

I guess some could do half size classes.