WHO and airborne transmission

[labyrinthloafer]

Been wondering about this latest update from WHO, as this has implications for schools and offices www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-airbourne-transmission-world-health-organisation-a4491876.html

It is hard with this virus, as we are getting new info and opinions all the time.

This hasn't helped me feel better about school, tbh, or the office.

I was just reading about this too.
To be honest, I've always thought the 1 or 2 metre distancing in closed spaces doesn't make sense as surely air circulates in the room if you spend an hour or more with someone, whether you're sitting 2 metres apart or not. This seems to be what they are saying is happening.

It does seem like WHO has changed their view on this several times now so it's confusing.

and we have reduced the social distancing.... total recipe for disaster and purely an economic move.

As a teacher who will be spending time with 200 odd students each week for an hour at a time, in a small classroom with window restrictors.... I really hope this makes them change the rules and recommend cloth masks/face coverings for all students and staff (Barr exemptions for good reasons obviously). I know it will impact the hearing impaired but there are no perfect solutions and it may enable schools to reduce transmission and so stay open!

I have always been confused about why transmission would be higher indoors than out if it wasn’t airborne. If you’re at a distance surely it wouldn’t matter if you were in or out?

It's not WHO that has changed their minds several times it's just they change their advice as more is found out about the virus.

If it wasn't airborne then there would be no need to wear masks.

I am becoming increasingly frustrated about the non-use of masks, because I can't understand what the possible downside would be.

The implications for 30+ adult sized teenagers in cramped classrooms where social distancing is impossible is going to be interesting. If it is confirmed that the virus is airborne the government will need to ensure teachers and students are protected. If they fail to do so they will be open to any claims that result from exposure to the virus. So we'll either be back to the smaller bubbles to maintain social distancing or everyone will need to wear masks. Or even a combination of the two.

@labyrinthloafer
Please don't get frustrated about people not wearing masks even on public transport. You might not understand it but there are valid reasons why people are exempt from wearing them.

What will happen here? From what we have witnessed so far is that advice from WHO will be ignored, and unless a lot of pressure is applied schools will re-open as planned.

@labyrinthloafer I think a fair point has been made here about the frustrations of people not wearing masks. Doctors, nurses, dentists etc have been wearing them for years without moaning that they can't as they are asthmatic or suffer from panic attacks. I get there will be a very small percentage of people who genuinely can't but surely they could wear visors? Look at the streets in Spain - everyone has to wear a mask there and there's no arguing (there are some medical exemptions).

I'm from an Asian country with very low cases where face masks are mandatory and people just get used to it (apart from those who can't wear masks due to medical reasons). It surprises me how many people here have the defiant attitude of "face mask isn't for me so I'm not wearing it".

[quote canigooutyet]@labyrinthloafer
Please don't get frustrated about people not wearing masks even on public transport. You might not understand it but there are valid reasons why people are exempt from wearing them.[/quote]
Sorry, I think you misunderstood - I am frustrated they are not mandatory (with legitimate exceptions) in more situations. Especially secondary schools etc.

I wouldn't get frustrated with an individual.

How do you know they are defiant or genuinely exempt?

The government have issued a list of those who are exempt. Either they will find out the hard way through a fine, or carry on without the need to wear one. Others will be using whatever methods they use to try and wear one for some moments when outside with the hope of wearing one all the time.

@Hyggefun

The implications for 30+ adult sized teenagers in cramped classrooms where social distancing is impossible is going to be interesting. If it is confirmed that the virus is airborne the government will need to ensure teachers and students are protected. If they fail to do so they will be open to any claims that result from exposure to the virus. So we'll either be back to the smaller bubbles to maintain social distancing or everyone will need to wear masks. Or even a combination of the two.

I would not wish to be a teacher, I'll be honest

John Campbell said months ago that there was evidence it was probably airborne. Cramped poorly ventilated spaces are the worst, and the longer you spend there the more virus particles you are likely to inhale.

If there is only one infected person in the room and people don’t move around, then those nearest the infected person are going to be exposed to be more viral particles, and are therefore more likely to become infected. But even people a considerable distance away could get enough of a load - especially if air is being circulated.

@labyrinthloafer sorry yes you're right I misunderstood. I feel your frustrations. We hear children aren't carriers or whatever, yet no-one seems to know what age they do become a risk. And we know teens have died from this but as with secondary especially, since March they have been forgotten about.

It's only in that last month that secondary is suddenly the hot topic because year 7's to start and of course people started to realise oh shit gcse's 😂and so solution is well at the moment lets just get them all in.

I shouldn't laugh as mine is in one of the forgotten secondary years, heading towards the first year of oh shit gcse's. (There's more consultation stuff about the new proposals on the gov site)

@Hyggefun

The implications for 30+ adult sized teenagers in cramped classrooms where social distancing is impossible is going to be interesting. If it is confirmed that the virus is airborne the government will need to ensure teachers and students are protected. If they fail to do so they will be open to any claims that result from exposure to the virus. So we'll either be back to the smaller bubbles to maintain social distancing or everyone will need to wear masks. Or even a combination of the two.

Realistically, if it is airborne, how can any one be protected indoors? Masks would help but I can't imagine they would totally interrupt transmission.

If it is airborne, and no vaccine is forthcoming in the near future, it's hard to see how it will ever be OK for people to spend prolonged periods of time indoors with each other.

I think they need to close pubs and resturants except outside and accept blended learning.

I am not surprised a respiratory infection is airbourne.

From what I understand, WHO are basically saying it's more airborne than originally known.

We've know for months that it spreads this way. Spray an aerosol and watch how the vapours fall. It's those vapours from the sneezes and coughs that lands on the surfaces etc. If those vapours that stay on the equipment and tables hence nothing can be shared and regular cleaning of desks etc is needed.

This was one of the reasons why there's plastic screens everywhere, why bus drivers compartments were blocked off from public etc. Why if we can we should wear a mask etc in certain places. Logic says if we have to wear them inside some places, then this should apply to all.

But as we know regardless of how the rest of the world are managing to try and provide some education, we aren't designed for this at all. Here we get s bit of snow and thousands of kids miss education, other parts of the world they carry on. Kids that are off because of health reasons have missed education and quickly fall behind, other countries it seamlessly carries on.

That isn't to say that all schools here aren't capable of carrying on. They do what they can and often staff pay visits to the student to help education carry on because they have the resources etc and most of it from donations.

All this has done is shown how bad our education system is here, and it's not surprising when budgets get cut and demands increase from all sides.

@PuzzledObserver I find the virus and the government response hard, because it felt like 'surely it is in the air we breathe in a room' but we are told not to worry about that.

Then we are told yes, we maybe should worry about that.

I am worrying more than if they had said the reverse I think.

But hey, the government is now encouraging going out it's all about the economy from now on.

They can throw around how ever many eating out vouchers they want, nothing would entice me to get out around people for the foreseeable future.

I work in a HVAC related industry. It's been known for decades that poorly ventilated indoor spaces with low humidity are horrendous for the spread of airborne viruses such as flu and other Corona viruses. There was always evidence that it is airborne but WHO didn't want to listen. Masks will help, as will improving the indoor climate, which will cost money.
Dr Stephanie Taylor writes excellent, factually based articles (although bare in mind that she has close ties with Condair).
The Belgian health authority has published a report stressing the need to revisit airco systems, with the end conclusion that opening the windows in offices etc will address at lot of problems. Unfortunately it's currently only available in Dutch and French.
The New York Times also has an interesting article here
Makes you wonder why the playgrounds are still closed, seeing as they're all outdoors where the risk of transmission is minimal......

@BaronessBomburst

Thank you for the reading matter. It may be that this issue gets more coverage over the coming weeks after this letter.

Well I can't open the windows more than a crack in my classroom due to window restrictors for H&S.
I can't see money being spent on schools to improve them - I have a permanent bucket in my room for when it rains as the roof leaks. The government haven't even provided money for the extra cleaning that is needed. I am doing all my distance teaching on a rather knackered secondhand laptop that I also share with my children. Or on my phone....schools can't afford laptops for teachers and my take home wage is only just above £1000 per month..... Out of that I already but pens and glue sticks for my classes.
Education in this country is an absolute scandal - it is so poorly funded. Most teachers I know work double their directed hours for no extra pay for example, and you practically have to sell your third child to get photocopying permission.