Scientists warn of potential wave of covid-linked brain damage

[Redolent]

A study by researchers at University College London (UCL)described 43 cases of patients with COVID-19 who suffered either temporary brain dysfunction, strokes, nerve damage or other serious brain effects.

“We’re seeing things in the way Covid-19 affects the brain that we haven’t seen before with other viruses,” said Michael Zandi, a senior author on the study and a consultant at the institute and University College London Hospitals NHS foundation trust.

“What we’ve seen with some of these Adem patients, and in other patients, is you can have severe neurology, you can be quite sick, but actually have trivial lung disease,” he added.

In the UCL study, published in the journal Brain, nine patients who had brain inflammation were diagnosed with a rare condition called acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM) which is more usually seen in children and can be triggered by viral infections.

The team said it would normally see about one adult patient with ADEM per month at their specialist London clinic, but this had risen to at least one a week during the study period, something they described as “a concerning increase”.

“My worry is that we have millions of people with COVID-19 now. And if in a year’s time we have 10 million recovered people, and those people have cognitive deficits ... then that’s going to affect their ability to work and their ability to go about activities of daily living,” Adrian Owen, a neuroscientist at Western University in Canada, told Reuters in an interview.

Oh and he’s fine now and doesn’t have any long term problems and that’s 15 years later.

'It sounds much more akin to polio than the flu. Would people be going round saying “it’s just polio, time to get on with life” ???'

It's not 'the flu' but it definitely is not polio. In fact, in terms of symptoms, level of illness and mortality, it is far closer to 'the flu' than polio, which had a 15-30% mortality in adults and left many paralysed.

The majority of Covid sufferers suffer an unpleasant but time limited (weeks not months or years) illness and then recover. Some clearly fare worse, especially the very old.

The majority of known viruses have potentially serious and long term side effects including flu and chicken pox.

@EarlGreywithLemon

It sounds much more akin to polio than the flu. Would people be going round saying “it’s just polio, time to get on with life” ???

As far as I'm aware, when polio was epidemic people did just get on with life. They didnt lock down the country for months and years while waiting for a vaccine. In terms of survival rate and long term effects, covid is far less dangerous than polio.

Arghhh!! Before a polio vaccine (introduced in the 50s) there were up to 7,760 cases of paralytic polio a year with up to 750 deaths a year.

So that would be why.

@larrygrylls

'It sounds much more akin to polio than the flu. Would people be going round saying “it’s just polio, time to get on with life” ???'

It's not 'the flu' but it definitely is not polio. In fact, in terms of symptoms, level of illness and mortality, it is far closer to 'the flu' than polio, which had a 15-30% mortality in adults and left many paralysed.

The majority of Covid sufferers suffer an unpleasant but time limited (weeks not months or years) illness and then recover. Some clearly fare worse, especially the very old.

The majority of known viruses have potentially serious and long term side effects including flu and chicken pox.

With polio ^“1 in 200 infections leads to irreversible paralysis. Among those paralysed, 5% to 10% die when their breathing muscles become immobilized.” (from the WHO www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/poliomyelitis).^

So in fact polio mortality is lower than COVID - significantly lower.

And ^“ Most people with polio won't have any symptoms and will fight off the infection without even realising they were infected. A small number of people will experience a flu-like illness 3 to 21 days after they're infected. These symptoms will usually pass within about a week. In a small number of cases, the polio virus attacks the nerves in the spine and base of the brain. This can cause paralysis, usually in the legs, that develops over hours or days.The paralysis isn't usually permanent, and movement will often slowly return over the next few weeks and months. But some people are left with persistent problems. If the breathing muscles are affected, it can be life threatening.” (from the NHS www.nhs.uk/conditions/polio/)^

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way trying to trivialise polio. I’m just saying that the way infectious diseases go, Covid isn’t trivial at all.

I’m interested in this as I had what I think was Covid in early March after flying back from Spain - dry persistent cough , burning lungs, breathlessness, nights sweats , pains in back and neck , was exhausted. For a few days in the middle of this I experienced intense ocular migraines , to the point of losing sight completely in one eye and being unable to stay at work . Never had them before - could my brain have been affected in some way 🤔 ??

when polio was epidemic people did just get on with life. They didnt lock down the country for months and years while waiting for a vaccine
those were very different times though, I dont think making comparisons is very useful or relevant

Measles does this to a very small percentage of kids, including many years after they are thought to have recovered. Horrific. And yet the world continues to turn. 🤔 This thread isn't constructive or proportionate.

Sub acute sclerosing panecephalitis:
www.cdc.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html

when polio was epidemic people did just get on with life. They didnt lock down the country for months and years while waiting for a vaccine

Eh? No, they weren't waiting for a vaccine because they were far less common back then - but they absolutely did quarantine in order to limit epidemics!

they absolutely did quarantine in order to limit epidemics!
^this. In fact, in New York during one of the waves, children under 16 weren’t allowed in public places at all, and babies and children had to be kept away from other babies and children. Infectious babies and children could and were forcibly removed from their families and put in quarantine hospitals. Things like open air cinemas and Fourth of July celebrations were cancelled. This is an interesting read on it:
time.com/5831740/polio-coronavirus-parallels/

[quote PicsInRed]Measles does this to a very small percentage of kids, including many years after they are thought to have recovered. Horrific. And yet the world continues to turn. 🤔 This thread isn't constructive or proportionate.

Sub acute sclerosing panecephalitis:
www.cdc.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html[/quote]
And that’s why there’s a vaccine for measles.
If there wasn’t and it was a new virus for which there’s no widespread immunity, I’d imagine the reaction would be the same.

I think what a PP in this instance was looking to say wasn't that this virus is "just another flu/cold" but rather that neurological complications aren't an unknown and exclusive component of Covid-19.

Sadly in a small number of cases many viruses are known to cause unexpected long term effects, including on the brain.

This is being looked at in far more detail with SARS-Cov-2 than with other viruses because it's new, there's a pandemic and it's a focus of attention. There will be little data on the specific long term effects of various other viruses because they each happen so rarely.

Of course it's a concern, I'm pregnant and very worried that we don't know what the long term effects might be on a fetus if as it seems it may be vertically transmitted in a small proportion of cases. The majority of viruses known to cross the placenta do have a negative effect - but then again nobody is studying other common viruses in such detail as this one as there's been no need. It might be that others do as well but don't cause significant damage. I think RSV and even influenza (I'm sure people will hate me mentioning) have been thought to cross the placenta in very rare, isolated incidences but it's rarely looked and so uncommon it's generally considered not to. That's aside of course from the probable risks of maternal inflammation from any infection on fetal cognitive development, but that's always been the case.

I have to weigh it up with understanding that a world in which there are no jobs or food is not a good one for my baby to come into either, and continue to be personally cautious while understanding others will wish to live their lives as lockdown gradually eases.

Also we just won't have the data on long term consequences of this virus for a long time - years

It would be impossible to manage restrictions for that long, assuming an effective vaccine isn't available imminently

As more information comes out about the long-term consequences of the virus more people will want to do everything they can to avoid getting it
Imo the government will have a fight on its hands getting the people to get back to normal economic activity, many will decide that they are happy to live a simpler more frugal life as long as they can avoid having long-term health problems

The aims of the government and the aims of the people will become at cross purposes
The government needs to keep its rich friends happy so that it can stay in power
in order to keep its rich friends happy it needs to persuade the people to resume normal economic activity so the rich can extract a profit from us

It's already extremely well known that covid causes blood clots, which usually cause death. These investigations are being done on those that survived...just. they are left with brain damage from blood clots that got to the brain. Nothing is new here, this sort of thing has been known for weeks/months.

Did you know that children that have chickenpox are 4 times more likely to have a stroke in the 6 months following the illness?

There is an effective vaccine against chickenpox, yet it is not provided on NHS as it is not seen as cost effective given the small numbers of children that end up in ICU or dead. Personally, I think that's appalling.

My point is, there are lots of viruses already in circulation that can have serious complications, some we don't even bother to vaccinate against. So why all the frothing and hysteria over a relatively small number of Covid complications.

Link to back up the increased risk of stroke
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3864501/

And don't get me started on toxoplasmosis...

If you Google the neurological effects of toxoplasmosis it can be really nasty. We could probably eradicate it by banning domestic cats, yet no one is suggesting this.

I just don't get the Covid hysteria.

@TotorosFurryBehind

Did you know that children that have chickenpox are 4 times more likely to have a stroke in the 6 months following the illness?

There is an effective vaccine against chickenpox, yet it is not provided on NHS as it is not seen as cost effective given the small numbers of children that end up in ICU or dead. Personally, I think that's appalling.

My point is, there are lots of viruses already in circulation that can have serious complications, some we don't even bother to vaccinate against. So why all the frothing and hysteria over a relatively small number of Covid complications.

Well said! It is as though people think for every other virus you just recover and that's it. I am in no way mininising Covid but I cannot understand why people are shocked over post viral fatigue and other long lasting effects. It is a virus.... That is what they do. It must be awful and I really want to avoid it, but it is more common than we think. Loads of heart attacks, strokes, myocarditis etc are triggered by viral infections

Bookmarking, my friend had a Covid19 induced stroke, she is getting better but still struggling to walk.

I’ve seen ADEM previously it’s not just COVID related. All illnesses have the potential to cause post complications in our bodies. Just as we are seeing in Covid. It will affect people differently just like other infections do too.

Covid is new of course and we will see post infection complications and it will be publicised because of this. We should be rightly concerned and aware but until more is researched and analysed I’m not being terrified to live either. Before COVID I could of still got a chest infection that caused sepsis for example or another virus that caused a post viral reaction.

@ChasingRainbows19

I’ve seen ADEM previously it’s not just COVID related. All illnesses have the potential to cause post complications in our bodies. Just as we are seeing in Covid. It will affect people differently just like other infections do too.

Covid is new of course and we will see post infection complications and it will be publicised because of this. We should be rightly concerned and aware but until more is researched and analysed I’m not being terrified to live either. Before COVID I could of still got a chest infection that caused sepsis for example or another virus that caused a post viral reaction.

Agreed. There is no data on this other than zoe reports and facebook group anecdotal evidence so throwing around "young people are getting long term problems" is not helpful at the minute. How many? What are their ages? What percentage are effected? What are they suffering from? It may turn out to be worrying, or it may turn out to be in line with other viruses. Until there is further info it is speculation. It is as though we cannot shout "we are all going to die" anymore now that the IFR is lower than thought. So now we are shouting "we are all going to get long term conditions".

So I don’t believe this is just limited to Covid, based on my experience.

You're correct, ADEM can be triggered by a virus. However Covid-19 seems particularly good at triggering the immune system to turn on the body. Not only this but also the immune inflammatory response in children and the response in some medics with a high viral load. That is not good news. We need to know more.

So why all the frothing and hysteria over a relatively small number of Covid complications.

I doubt it's proportionately "small", relative to the chickenpox/stroke scenario you describe (agree the vaccine should be made available to all children). If you have seen ADEM first hand, you would understand that a rise in cases of this illness is utterly appalling. You could be looking at possibly severe brain damage for young adults who will need care for the rest of their lives, or children without parents. Think mad cow disease. Psychosis. Paralysis. Coma. It is horrific. The cost of ICU care for these patients is astronomical. If specialists are saying they're concerned you would be bloody stupid not to be concerned. It makes AIDS look like a walk in the park. Polio is preferable.