When will people be happy to start living with the risk of catching Coronavirus?

[wakeupitsabeautifulmorning]

Considering there possibly won't be a vaccination for quite some time, if at all, but things are going to have to start returning to normal for the sake of everything else - economy, education, other health issues etc. There is currently so much opposition to easing out of lockdown, people will have to get back to work and schools cannot be part time for years (childcare issues plus the massive impact on disadvantaged dc, plus the dc not engaging in home learning). Spoke to a few people today who are horrified at the thought of a return to normal as they are frightened of catching the virus. I was a bit surprised a they were under 35 with dc (no known health problems). It's like they think it's just going to miraculously vanish.

I see both sides of this as valid.
Lockdown or no Lockdown
However what is often missed is that this Virus is leaving many of us with a diminished immune system and terrible fatigue.
Also damaged Lungs.
So while you might be willing to risk dying how do you feel about the rest of your life as an invalid. ?.....having a chronic illness that makes you need help every day is a possibility and this fact seems to be getting forgotten.

You won't die but you will no longer be fit and healthy either.

@Derbygerbil

As for the NHS, it couldn't cope where I live before Covid. I never thought what was left of it here was worth protecting.

Yes, because we’d all be in such a great place as a society if just closed down the NHS because it’s just not worth protecting.

In it's pre-Covid form, I don't consider it was worth protecting. And we didn't protect the health service, we turned it into a Covid service. I don't see that as an achievement.

NowI'mlivininExeter

Burning building. Who would you save? The baby or the elderly person?

You know very well that most people would save the baby if you are reducing the argument to such a puerile and simplistic level. When drafting government policy however, one would hope that everybody's life would be equally valued, especially those least able to speak up for themselves.

DM is 88 and certainly doesn't expect me to give my life up for her. She's also rather tired of life. DH has 5-10 years life expectancy, is in the shielding group, made explicit comments about where shielding could shove itself and is carrying on as normal.

Just because they have a death wish doesn’t mean they have the right to impose that on others.

I might fancy the thrill of riding at 140mph while high on coke, and not be too bothered about the risks of crashing - you only live once after all!... But others reasonably don’t want me risking their lives that they care more about than I do, so I don’t...

I suspect most people when they see their own health decline due to not being able to get proper treatment, their kids education and mental health suffer, and their jobs disappear won’t give two fucks.

They will if the person at risk is somebody close to them.

This isn't just about people who are in their eighties or nineties. Many people are vulnerable because they are living with a chronic condition like asthma or diabetes or recovering from cancer.

And frankly there is already an enormous section of society whose lives are considered more expendable than others. Just ask any BAME person.

We can agree on that. Do many wrongs make a further wrong somehow more justifiable?

DM is 88 and certainly doesn't expect me to give my life up for her. She's also rather tired of life. DH has 5-10 years life expectancy, is in the shielding group, made explicit comments about where shielding could shove itself and is carrying on as normal.

And other people feel differently.

Unfortunately, if you think Covid should just be allowed to take its course, you need to do the math. The fatality rate for the disease is between 1% and 2%. Assuming around 80% of the population got the disease before herd immunity was reached, that is between 500,000 to 1m excess deaths (or, between 1,400 and 2,700 per day, every day for a full year). The NHS would definitely not cope, so additional deaths would happen directly because of Covid, and even more because of lack of access to other treatment. It simply isn’t a viable option. It is this analysis which finally convinced Boris of the need for a lockdown in March.

The latest ONS survey suggests just under 7% of the population have had it, so we have a long way to go to herd immunity.

@BamboozledandBefuddled

The NHS may be far from perfect, but despite its flaws I’d far rather it was around to provide healthcare (to the extent it’s able to do so) rather than not at all, because it’s just unworthy of any protection. That would be completely irrational!

Do many wrongs make a further wrong somehow more justifiable?

What do you think of the wrongs being done to huge sections of already disadvantaged people due to the lockdown? People who have lost their jobs? Women and children currently locked up with abusers? People whose cancers and other serious illnesses are being missed or not treated? Women with postnatal depression who cannot access support?

Or is the only "wrong" here covid deaths?

Can I ask, genuine question to everyone who wants it all to go back to normal now: we know that this will overwhelm the health system completely - evidence in Italy and Spain - are you ok with the fact that this means doctors will have to choose who gets treatment or not?most people who go into hospital do come home but this wouldn’t happen if the health service is overwhelmed, lots of those people will die. Are you just ok with that?

And frankly there is already an enormous section of society whose lives are considered more expendable than others. Just ask any BAME person.

Did you see Gary Younge's article in the New Statesman about this? It was very informative, he talks about the ways in which:

Covid-19 has demonstrated how racism can kill in far less dramatic ways and in far greater numbers without offering a morality play that might be shared on social media.

what can we do about it? In the short term, the answer is fairly straightforward. Just as minorities are disproportionately affected by the disease, they are disproportionately assisted by any efforts to combat it. The more PPE there is for health workers and care workers, the more that people avoid public transport, and the more that testing and tracing is available, the more that racial and ethnic disparities will be reduced. Just as the government’s negligence has left us more exposed, government vigilance would make us considerably safer.
www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/06/we-cant-breathe

It's also not a straight choice between freedom and lockdown.

Social distancing measures that make it very difficult for some industries to function, also control the spread of the virus so that other people can return to work more safely.

Sadly, this epidemic has shown up our failings as a society. The government ignored the threat until much too late and then our overstretched NHS proved entirely unable to treat all but the dying (and let many others die of different diseases just so our Covid record didn’t look even worse than it already did). In addition, it showed that we are not a society who can work together, and most just act for their own ends.

The idea of just ‘risking’ getting sick for economic gain won’t work. As people see cases going up the NHS overstretched, they will vote with their feet and not go out at all, further endangering the economy. Treating the sick and long term rehabilitation will further stress the economy.

If people are a little patient, we should be able to gradually restart safely, as most of Europe already has and, in a few months, there should be a vaccine.

Can I ask, genuine question to everyone who wants it all to go back to normal now:

I don't want it all to go back to normal; I recognise that can't happen yet. I would like:

• schools to reopen for all year groups
• restaurants and pubs to reopen for outdoor customers, followed by indoor customers if social distancing is possible
• financial help and proper emotional support given to the shielded and the vulnerable and for them to be properly protected
• office workers and others who can reasonably work from home to continue doing so
• to see small groups of family and friends without social distancing
• for zoos and other outdoor attractions to reopen
• for swimming pools and gyms to reopen with proper precautions

I don't think the time is quite right for large gatherings just yet. And I believe good hand hygiene needs to continue to be encouraged and normalised.

our overstretched NHS proved entirely unable to treat all but the dying

It could have treated far more. It chose not to. There were entire hospitals lying empty.

It is a fucking national disgrace.

@Incrediblytired

Can I ask, genuine question to everyone who wants it all to go back to normal now: we know that this will overwhelm the health system completely - evidence in Italy and Spain - are you ok with the fact that this means doctors will have to choose who gets treatment or not?most people who go into hospital do come home but this wouldn’t happen if the health service is overwhelmed, lots of those people will die. Are you just ok with that?

You say we know that this will overwhelm the health system completely. Are you aware that quite a large number of us don't actually believe that's going to happen?

I suspect most people when they see their own health decline due to not being able to get proper treatment

I understand people’a frustrations, but this is ludicrous.... If we all said a collective “sod it”, why on earth do some people think that the NHS will then be able to provide treatment as they did pre-Covid? It makes no sense whatsoever.... It would be akin to cutting off your nose to your face and shooting yourself in both feet....

With nothing to stop it, infections would increase exponentially again (even if there is considerable t-cell immunity - compared to NYC figures we’re still not even a third of the way there!) and in a few months we’ll be back to square one, but even more so as we’d have officially given up any pretence at controlling this “bit of flu” and the Nightingales would be pressed into use....

And all the treatment that has started to return, or will come back very soon, will be completely curtailed for months and months as the NHS becomes swamped far more than it did before. Utter lunacy!

Several weeks ago then DP may have still had a job to return to.

@NowImLivinInExeter

I agree with your approach.... we can’t stay hidden forever. It’s the “screw this - Let’s return completely to normal right now!” people that I think are nuts.

You say we know that this will overwhelm the health system completely. Are you aware that quite a large number of us don't actually believe that's going to happen?

Lots of people believe crazy stuff.

Can I ask, genuine question to everyone who wants it all to go back to normal now: we know that this will overwhelm the health system completely

I'm not clear if people are not making that connection or don't want to, for personal or political reasons. On another thread a poster blaming lockdown for her daughter's poor medical treatment. But couldn't see that easing/lifting lockdown would make her daughter's chances now and in the future much worse. Coronavirus is not a straightforward respiratory illness it's one that attacks multiple areas of the body. Even people who've had mild illnesses at home have later been diagnosed with heart problems that will be lifelong. People of working age are being sent home as recovered but may never work again, people in their 30s who had no underlying conditions who may need lifelong oxygen just to get through the day. Not to mention strokes, lung/liver/brain and other forms of damage that will be costly and require a great deal of NHS resources. There are already articles in medical journals discussing the horrendous impact that the need for extensive rehabilitation will have on an already stretched health service. The government presented a false scenario of 'you get it mildly OR you get it badly in which case you may die unless you get treatment to help you recover. But very little information about the recovered who then have massive health problems. Or the mild cases that are now being found to have complications down the line.

In my part of the country lockdown has kept numbers down, we have local social media groups so information easily shared, people are having scans, tests, treatments for cancer and other health problems because numbers have been pushed down but if they rise again? Lockdown is also buying time for better treatment, better use of medication, better understanding of what this disease really is, it's not a simple respiratory illness....

I’m more than happy to curtail some behaviours to try to reduce spread of the virus. I’ll do what I can whenever I can.

But I don’t want to lose my business (and my staff to lose their jobs). Sorry to those that think this is rampantly selfish but there we are.
I do want our foster kids to be able to go to school.

Now

Now. I know quite a few people who have had it. All bar one had mild symptoms.

My MiL and parents are all 70s, 80s and frankly they have had enough with this half-life, despite the fact it would most likely kill them if they got it. It has been awful seeing the effect of loneliness and isolation on my MiL - without us being to do anything as we live hours away.

We should've closed the borders and gone into lockdown sooner but with a proper plan to come out of lockdown based on science and evidence and freedom of choice - not the scaremongering and pandering to the mob mentality that seems to be the basis of policy making now