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Covid

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I'm finding the reaction to covid utterly bizarre

999 replies

TheDailyCarbuncle · 15/05/2020 21:17

If anyone had told me that healthy, fit people would willingly put their livelihoods at risk and deny their children an education for months on end, that they would send the country into recession putting healthcare, education and public services at risk for years and years to come to avoid getting a disease that had a very very small chance of killing them I wouldn't have believed it. If you'd said people would be afraid to talk to their healthy siblings I wouldn't have believed it.

I had measles in the 1980s as small child - the vaccination programme where I lived was slow to get off the ground - and it nearly killed me. In 1980 2.6 million people worldwide died of measles, a very large proportion of them children. No one ever considered a lockdown, it was never even suggested.

I think all the analysis of this situation in the coming years won't be about the pandemic, but about the contagion of fear that made people so terrified of something that wasn't a real threat to them that they created huge, long-lasting, in some cases devastating problems for themselves, problems that were nothing to do with their virus and everything to do with their reaction to the virus.

OP posts:
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TheDailyCarbuncle · 16/05/2020 10:53

For people asking about covid being in the UK in December, here's a really badly written piece from the BBC about it. It's strange how little has been said about it: www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52589449

OP posts:
TheDailyCarbuncle · 16/05/2020 10:55

I can't @MyHipsDontLieUnfortunately.

To be clear I'm not saying just act like nothing is happening - it makes sense to have good hygiene, not congregate in large groups, and stay at home if you do get ill.

But not seeing your friends. What's the point of that?

OP posts:
ShirleyB25 · 16/05/2020 10:55

@CaliforniaMountainSnake

Wow - just Wow.

I hope to Christ you're not working as a nurse or doctor. Lacking in empathy is putting mildly.

oralengineer · 16/05/2020 10:55

Yet again we have posters who think lockdown is the cure. Lockdown will not prevent deaths from Covid, it may reduce death in those who with treatment will survive, but it has been accepted that no amount of treatment will prevent some deaths.
The total desperation we are seeing on frontline NHS staff is not because they have no PPE but because despite all their efforts they only have oxygen and support treatments currently to assist patients whose bodies are on their own fighting this virus.
Lockdown was always and is always a method to slow transfer rate in a population that has community level infection. It buys time to find drugs and vaccine that can be used to cure and prevent disease while suppressing the spread so that less people die due to overwhelmed NHS.
The one bit of science that is clear from lockdown as this virus is spreading silently in the asymptomatic. The only way to protect those who are at more risk is to isolate this group. It would have been far more achievable than isolating 66000000 people.

ShirleyB25 · 16/05/2020 10:56

@MyHipsDontLieUnfortunately

Grin Grin

Derbygerbil · 16/05/2020 10:57

I think talk of risk on a personal level misses the point. As a 40-something with no underlying conditions (that I know of), I know my risk is very, very low, and there is no justification for social distancing, let alone lockdown, if my personal health was the only consideration.

The issue is that many people live with, or have close friends and family, whose risks are far higher, and whereas the risk might be minuscule to me personally, it’s not to my 83 year old father for instance. Unless you’re sociopathic, you’ll care deeply about possibly causing the death or serious illness to loved ones. Even if the risk is relatively low (I realise my 83 yo father has a considerably better chance of surviving than dying), the chances for him are still akin to playing Russian roulette with his life (and that’s not even taking account of him surviving having been seriously ill). So, no, we can’t reasonably expect to get back to normal... Also, I’d rather take a X% chance with my own life than a X% chance with a loved one.

That’s not to say we should be scared of every shadow, and I’m hoping my daughter is able to return to school before the summer - we’ll just have to manage the risk with my parents and meet them in an outside space.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 16/05/2020 10:57

Yet these posters are never present when people say - I’m depressed, I’m worried about my job, I’m worried about my kids schooling, I’m worried about domestic violence, I’m worried about whatever.

I have already advocated that closed hotels be repurposed as DV shelters. I have spent hours on DV threads encouraging posters to leave, reminding them that fleeing DV is deemed essential travel. I have supported a poster who wanted to send her autistic child back to school (he has a place as he is vulnerable) against her husband's objection.

How dare you accuse lockdown advocates of not caring.

mrpumblechook · 16/05/2020 10:57

Death was so prevelant in the Victorian times people were pretty comfortable with it. Infant death was a normal part of life.

How do you know people are "comfortable" with it?Hmm Infant mortality is still high in some parts of the country. Do you think that they don't grieve for the loss of their children as much as you would? How offensive.

mrpumblechook · 16/05/2020 10:58

are were

CaliforniaMountainSnake · 16/05/2020 10:58

This reply has been deleted

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Alex50 · 16/05/2020 11:00

@mrpumblechook I have to go back to work on the 1st June, with social distanceing, it helps to know my risk is low. I have elderly parents who are very fit and healthy so no I don’t think anyone over 45 is old. I won’t be going anywhere near my parents for a very long time. I do need to go back to work to pay my bills, the risk of loosing my home and stress of debt piling up is much higher than the risk of coronvirus

Raaaa · 16/05/2020 11:00

@CaliforniaMountainSnake I agree.

ShirleyB25 · 16/05/2020 11:00

@Sostenueto

I completely agree with you, and think the deaths in the UK are a shambolic mess, and that yes, we should have locked down as soon as that first poor woman died in Royal Berkshire hospital. Also started track and trace from that point.

Sadly, that wasn't to be with the quite frankly idiotic government .

And we are left with the current mess, along with unbelievably stupid members of the public who think we shouldn't have locked down at all!

oralengineer · 16/05/2020 11:02

Also so many posters are claiming to have had virus in Jan and Feb. If this turns out to be the case the community infection was already here so quarantine and lockdown earlier would have made no difference.
The earlier than predicted peak of infection does support that lockdown was not entirely necessary.
The epidemic outbreaks in care homes does suggest that Covid has been transferred from hospitals. This is too simplistic because there are further issues within care homes not attributable to NHS or government, the CQC, however, are responsible for some of the mess.

EarlGreywithLemon · 16/05/2020 11:04

@Notredamn, if you are ill with Covid 19, even mildly, you are advised to isolate from other family members for as long as you have symptoms. Being kept apart from their mother would be much more traumatic for a baby than not being “socialised”.
That’s not even taking into account what happens if the parents get a serious dose, or worse. Or if the baby gets ill.

mrpumblechook · 16/05/2020 11:06

I have to go back to work on the 1st June, with social distanceing, it helps to know my risk is low. I have elderly parents who are very fit and healthy so no I don’t think anyone over 45 is old. I won’t be going anywhere near my parents for a very long time. I do need to go back to work to pay my bills, the risk of loosing my home and stress of debt piling up is much higher than the risk of coronvirus

Fair enough. I wasn't suggesting that people shouldn't work with social distancing (I have throughout lockdown).

pigoons · 16/05/2020 11:08

Why do people keep banging on about the Swedish model? Sweden is geographically a much larger country than the UK yet the population is only about 10m. The population of London is 9m. You have to take account of population density. Covid will spread more quickly in the UK and potentially infect more people / cause more deaths.

TheClaws · 16/05/2020 11:10

I can't wait until we don't have governments anymore

What an odd comment to make, but not unexpected from you, Annamaria - yet you were complaining earlier about not receiving medical help when you needed it. How would that improve without government? How would a world-wide pandemic of this magnitude be handled without governments? Think about it.

mrpumblechook · 16/05/2020 11:11

Anyway @TheDailyCarbuncle, the long and short of this thread is that you're perfectly willing to go back to life as normal. Crack on then.

Yes, it may be wrong but I part of me wishes some posters would crack on and get infected.

NorwoodLights · 16/05/2020 11:13

The virus is in itself relatively mild; it is the complications that can kill. Yet very recent reports have highlighted the fact that the groups who are most likely to die from Covid are also those who are most likely to have vitamin D deficiency . The recommendation is that everyone takes a supplement.

scitechdaily.com/vitamin-d-determines-severity-in-covid-19-researchers-urge-government-to-change-advice/

Baffled as to why these reports haven't been more widely publicised.

ThisAintNoPartyThisAintNoDisco · 16/05/2020 11:13

Many over 70s have been scared witless now. But I suspect a significant number would prefer to be given information and then left in peace to make their own assessments instead of lumped together in a homogeneous mass.

Many in that category are fit and vibrant and crucially, perfectly able to assess their own risk. It’s disrespectful to treat them otherwise. What quality of life is there in your later years being locked inside away from everything even if you don’t catch anything?

Whilst a year or two could be absorbed maybe by younger lives waiting for things to improve, time left must be something that becomes more sharply focused the older you are.

Also there’s a big difference between a fit, sometimes still working, 70 yr old and a 95 yr old needing significant care.

Derbygerbil · 16/05/2020 11:14

Death was so prevelant in the Victorian times people were pretty comfortable with it. Infant death was a normal part of life.

I expect they were as “comfortable” with infant death as an African mother is whose child dies of malaria or a Mexican mother whose teenage son dies in a drug war shoot-out.... Just because something is more prevalent doesn’t mean people are comfortable with it.

I agree to the extent that we need to accept that we are all mortal, and that it’s inevitable that we’ll die sooner or later... And that life is more about its quality than its duration.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 16/05/2020 11:14

People are dying and will die due to lockdown.

When the lockdown death rate exceeds the coronavirus death rate, you will have a point, and at that point lockdown absolutely should be relaxed. How many times must I say that this is a numbers game?

If I had to take the heart of another living child to save mine, no I wouldn't take it.

That's not comparable. What we are talking about with lockdown is increasing danger for a smaller number of people in order to reduce danger for a larger number. Massively oversimplified[1] triage example: if your local hospital had £500,000 to spend on saving one sick child with a very expensive treatment or two other sick children with less expensive treatments, do you not agree with me that it's better to save two and lose one than the other way around?

[1] I'm ignoring other considerations like QALY and survival chance here.

TotorosFurryBehind · 16/05/2020 11:15

Agreed OP. I've been thinking a lot about why the modern population has reacted this way, compared to past populations.

I'd never even heard of the 1969 Hong Kong flu pandemic, but conservative estimates put the global death toll at 1million+. Why didn't people lockdown and panic back then?

I feel like there is something around how, post 9/11, media coverage of disasters/attacks/diseases changed to constant coverage, which almost revels in dramatising news in a way that feeds anxiety. I recall media coverage being far more calm and critical when I was young

RaspberryToupee · 16/05/2020 11:17

I think the biggest issue is fear. My grandma, mid 80s with underlying health conditions including COPD, is officially shielding. She is terrified of coronavirus, and yes the stats for her are not great. Her routine health appointments have been cancelled for the foreseeable future. She isn’t allowing anyone into her house (my family) for risk of giving it to her. I’m not close enough to check up on her but the rest of my family are. They are dropping by, making sure her garden is done, bringing her shopping. When lockdown was stricter, she didn’t want my dad driving for 20 minutes each way to check on her because she was worried he’d get in trouble. Even though it would be checking on someone medically vulnerable.

Without too outing myself - everyone in my family works in a higher risk industry (lots of people in confined spaces, some dealing with Covid-19 directly but lots of potential for carriers). My grandma doesn’t drive anymore. She’s terrified of public transport and even sitting in the car and at the hospital with her sons. When her routine medical appointments are rebooked, I’ve no idea how she will actually attend them without having a panic attack. God knows what missing her routine appointments for 2 months (at least) has done, what has been missed.

My fear at the moment, isn’t that my grandma dies from covid-19 because she has locked herself down. My fear is that she dies because her routine medical appointments have missed something worsening. Or when her routine appointments are rebooked she is too terrified of covid-19 to attend them. As heartless as this sounds, my grandma is reaching the age where she will likely die soon, it could be general old age or related to existing conditions. She could live another 20 years obviously but that’s the minority who do. I don’t want her to die but I realise it’s inevitable and I’d like to hug her, go for a meal with her before she does. It’s one of the great unknown unknowns - if we continue life as it was, would she get it and die or would she recover but she wouldn’t be so bloody terrified. Or have we created a fear greater than the virus itself and my grandma didn’t contract the virus but for 2 of her last 5 years, she wasn’t able to hug and kiss her siblings, her children, her grandchildren.

People often throw around how people with the virus will die, thinking that will create the fear. I imagine for some people that idea is scary but death is rarely dignified or nice. My aunt died the exact way that most people like to say covid-19 patients have died. She had secondary breast cancer that had spread to her lungs and liver. My grandad would probably fit the enviable category of a ‘nice’ death, although I disagree. He was placed in palliative care but it took about 10 days for him to actually die. It took 10 days of him eating less and less to nothing at all, drinking less and less, until they had to wet his lips with a sponge, not moving, not speaking just waiting for his body to finally give up. Now it’s no drowning in your own lungs but it’s hardly a nice death just becoming weaker until your body finally stops.

I’m not sure whether we should have locked down to begin with or continued on with some social distancing. I think we can only reach that conclusion with hindsight when we understand the virus a lot than we do now and we understand the full impact of other deaths (cancer, DV, suicide). I think reflections on that can’t be made for 5, 10 years. However, I think a lockdown was inevitable when you consider the fear around the virus and there are a number of factors that contributed to that fear: the way China reacted in those early months (ignoring it and then locking down an entire province and building a field hospital); social media including platforms such as this (yes, I see the irony) and the way the media reported on it. The government then adding a slogan of ‘stay home, save lives, protect the nhs’ then accelerated the fear.

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