I'm finding the reaction to covid utterly bizarre

[TheDailyCarbuncle]

If anyone had told me that healthy, fit people would willingly put their livelihoods at risk and deny their children an education for months on end, that they would send the country into recession putting healthcare, education and public services at risk for years and years to come to avoid getting a disease that had a very very small chance of killing them I wouldn't have believed it. If you'd said people would be afraid to talk to their healthy siblings I wouldn't have believed it.

I had measles in the 1980s as small child - the vaccination programme where I lived was slow to get off the ground - and it nearly killed me. In 1980 2.6 million people worldwide died of measles, a very large proportion of them children. No one ever considered a lockdown, it was never even suggested.

I think all the analysis of this situation in the coming years won't be about the pandemic, but about the contagion of fear that made people so terrified of something that wasn't a real threat to them that they created huge, long-lasting, in some cases devastating problems for themselves, problems that were nothing to do with their virus and everything to do with their reaction to the virus.

When the government take measures that work, it appears the measures were unnecessary, because the deaths have been averted.

Yup, like all the programming and database work before 2000 to circumvent the "millennium bug" caused by the year part of dates being stored as two digits. The reason why the ATMs carried on working and people's pay cheques turned up was because teams of database architects and (mostly COBOL) programmers worked for years to make sure everything would be OK, mostly by rewriting code and tables to use to four-digit years. But because nothing worse happened than some cheap calendar clocks not coping with the date, people think it was a lot of fuss about nothing. (This is a personal bugbear of mine, as it's been used as an excuse to cut spending on preventative IT work ever since.)

And people are drawing a comparison to domestic violence? How many people are we talking -- 100?

The DV fatality rate has doubled since lockdown began. It still doesn't come close to the number of covid deaths. PPs have correctly asserted upthread that you can't declare one death as worse than another. I can, however, declare that the deaths of 10 people are worse than the death of one. And frankly, with all those hotels sitting empty, surely they can be used as emergency shelters for abuse victims?

Brexit has got jack shit to do with anything right now. Every country in the entire planet is affected.

...'Lockdown is a very very extreme measure.

It will cause hundreds of thousands of deaths...'

Oh dear. Now this is an example of hysteria and hyperbole.

Haven't rtwt but completely but completely agree with this post!

The lockdown will cause more problems than it has solved.

No routine hospital appointments taking place,patients with life threatening conditions not being treated,many have died already.

Thousands of people waiting for urgent dental treatment.

Businesses that will never reopen.

We didn’t do anything in 1968 to stop the Hong Kong flu,it killed 80,000 people here in the U.K.Horrendous.

I would be happier out and about risking getting the virus,this is a vile way to live.I am in the vulnerable group as well.

With you all the way, OP. DH and i were on a 'virtual' quiz this eve and didn't dare admit that we think this lockdown needs to end now - those in favour often assume the moral high ground and make you feel like a murdering deviant who hates the NHS. I'm glad to see we're not the only ones much more concerned about the devastating economic impact of all this.

@Sadie789 I completely agree with you!!

It's nice to see this thread - I agree! I'm at a point where I've stopped messaging back friends because I can't even force myself to go along with this utter BS. I feel like I can't say anything that isn't in line with the media mantra because if I do I'm either a conspriracist or a heartless bitch. It near feels like people are half enjoying this crap. The way people just accepted all these rules and fell into line...!! What?? What?! And for what? We should be protecting the vulnerable and the rest of us should crack on with caution. I'm not scared of this virus, but I am scared of people giving away their rights and mine and the ramifications of the lockdown. I don't want my kids to grow up being germaphobes and everyone treating everyone like a disease. The government made a stupid mistake, it's created a monster, scared people and they don't know how to get rid of it. That's why they're telling people to wear masks - so they feel safe.

I wish someone would put together a documentary on what would have happened in the UK without lockdown. Lots of posters on here need to see one.
As a start -
Staff in all sectors getting sick at the same time with a severe effect on public transport, utilities, council services, social work and otge essential services.
Thousands of nurses, doctors, care workers and hospital cleaners off sick at the same time.
Chaos at supermarkets and for food deliveries.
100,000+ deaths of over 60s.
Morgues and undertakers swamped and unable to cope. Bodies piling up. Not enough body bags or PPE.
Healthy people in their 30s, 40s and 50s dying at home because they didn't have access to a lifesaving CPAP machine or ventilator.
People with diabetes catching it with no chance of a hospital bed.
More children catching it and instead of 100 children with a serious inflammatory disease, 1000s of children with an unknown inflammatory disease.
Other countries aghast at the UK resulting in long-lasting damage to our reputation as a destination for culture, tourism and international trade.

Maybe the answer is for all those who want business as usual to get deliberately exposed to the virus.

I'd agree but 15% of them would end up in hospital and the nhs wouldn't cope.

They can sign a waiver to say that they understand that they will get no treatment and then get exposed to the virus. It's just a bad flu, right? If they are happy for people to die as an acceptable tradeoff for this nebulous "economy" thing, they can be the ones who risk death. They should have no problem with this arrangement, based on what I've seen on this thread.

I've lost all patience with those who would put other people in danger after seeing the photos of one of my team (40s, no health conditions) in hospital on CPAP oxygen. I don't care if I upset the covidiots any more.

I guess the thing is - why do we pay for expensive treatments on nhs? For cancer, for other conditions where probability of benefit is not that great?

We do it because we care about people who might be affected badly and know that it could be us. I think there is a theory of marginal gains in sport - where you get improvements by optimising lots of little things. This is how we get v low death rates from surgery or childbirth (and these are things that are not infections which spread and magnify effect).

A lot of places which took quick decisive action are starting to open up and even open borders to countries who have low numbers of infected. Do you think they will be welcoming in people travelling from UK soon?

Yes @SidSparrow my 3 year old has become overly interested in germs and bugs and asked me how to get the germs out of her mouth today.

@480Widdio my parents are both seriously ill and over 70 and my mum keeps telling me she would rather see me as much as she can than worry about catching a virus. The way she sees it what life and health she has left is short and precious and yet she’s being forced to stay in her house indefinitely and do essentially nothing.

She’s not working from home or home schooling or doing Joe Wicks or about to jump on a bicycle and go for a 20km ride. She’s ill and 72. She just wants to spend time with me and her grandchildren.

These are the people suffering.

Mackers1 - re. wearing a mask - I wear one when I go out - especially supermarket - its for others benefit not for myself as I may in fact be a carrier of the virus but have no symptoms - it is not to protect myself from the virus but to prevent others from me if I have the virus! - get it?

"@Meruem have you heard of the Great Depression? I guess you have because it was so devastating it's still spoken about over 90 years later. What we're facing will make the Great Depression look like a nice picnic."

Have you heard of Spanish Flu? Same period.

Best post of the thread 😂

@Smilethoyourheartisbreaking

Right, I think I can see where the confusion lies. Your link is using stats from 2003, the picture has improved since then. Also, the one in 6 chance of dying in the next year was (in addition to being nearly two decades out of date!) for men aged 85 and over. They have clearly averaged that out in some way, a man aged 85 would have a longer expectancy than that average.

Also, it isn't just about the one in however many who would have died in the next year, the others who would not will have more years life expectancy between them if not faced with covid. What would the combined loss be there etc..

No point arguing the toss about it really, as I have said it isn't about individual risk, and I know many on here have different views about the value of life in later years. Just wanted to point out the stats are not quite as you suggest.

Someone on another thread shared this article about masks.
They’re not useless, they could go a long way to cutting down infection numbers.
But 80% of people need to wear them - if the population of the UK is anything like MN I can just imagine the bellyaching of people who will make every excuse under the sun to not wear one.

I think some people have lost sight of the fact that this is a novel virus, with unknown potential longterm consequences. This is not flu, this carries the possibility of massive long lasting damage if left unchecked.
We are at a reported number of over 30,000 deaths so far, with estimates going up to 50,000 - in two months. With lockdown.
Hong Kong flu killed 80,000 with no lockdown? Without lockdown UK deaths would be far higher. Two years down the line I seriously doubt that the total number of covid deaths in the UK will be under 80,000, with relatively strict lockdown (albeit late and in an ambiguous disorganised way!)

Forgot to link the article.

www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says

To follow on to my previous comment, even though I fully support the lockdown, I agree it's time to open up in some places. I think New York State's plan seems logical. Starting today, areas that meet certain criteria can open the least-dangerous categories of activity. They'll monitor it and if statistics continue to improve, in two weeks they'll open another set ofactivities. Obviously NYC will not meet the criteria for a while yet but some lower-density areas are.

I agree with the posters saying people are so quick to forget the scenes that came out of Italy.

I haven't RTWFT, but I just wanted to point out that this sort of lockdown has always been in the emergency plans for a global pandemic - hence why almost every country has initiated some sort of lockdown.

There is also a difference between things like measles (localised outbreaks, and some existing immunity in the population, and a vaccine available in the 1980s) - and a global pandemic of a novel virus that nobody has any immunity to, that has spread like wildfire over the globe in a matter of weeks.

rawlikesushi

"Like the lady who went to her socially-distanced choir in the US and infected 52 people in one session, 2 of whom died."

What you wrote here isn't true, the choir wasn't socially distancing, they just avoided hugs and handshakes, but they were standing only 6-10 inches apart for the 2 1/2 hour practice.

Your post is actually undermining current advice on social distancing by implying that it doesn't work.

I will add that I don't think that a choir practice is wise at the moment under any conditions, but it is important to stick to the facts.

And just to pull myself up, I should have said "for much of the 2 1/2 hour practice".

I think you make a very interesting point op.

I was reading an article in, if I remember correctly, The New York Times, about the way pandemics end. And the most common way is societal boredom, we just get fed up of being fearful, and learn to live with it.

There are so many statistics that are being thrown out on a daily basis with very little context. E.g how many who died of covid had diabetes. But it only has a limited meaning if we don't know how many diabetics there are in the country. How many who have been infected, what their outcome was. And that's just one statistic.

And frankly, with all those hotels sitting empty, surely they can be used as emergency shelters for abuse victims?
Yes. They could. And all the empty air bnbs and holiday homes. Other countries did it. It's a bit offensive to use abuse victims. It's not as if we should aspire to return to the pre-pandemic situation of two women a week being killed.

We are at a reported number of over 30,000 deaths so far, with estimates going up to 50,000 - in two months. With lockdown.
Those calling for lockdown to end before it's safe to do so think it won't affect them personally. Perhaps they're white and see BAME communities as expendable. Or they're comfortably off and saw the reports saying more poorer people have died than wealthier ones. Or they're very young and think 50 is elderly. Or they don't realise or care that the underlying conditions that increase people's risks are very common. Or they see disabled people (like Rory Kinnear's not elderly 48 year old sister) as expendable.

Some people fail to understand the lockdown is to protect the economy as much as if not more than lives.

People aren't just dying. Many others including young healthy ones are ill for weeks (see the threads by then on here). The economy won't run with large numbers off sick even if they're not dead. Nor will we have functioning hospitals.

We all want lockdown to end. When it's safe. For that to happen we only need to follow the lead of many countries worldwide. Reduce infection rate, test, track, and trace, early treatment, enough PPE, masks for the public. All managed by countries worldwide.

Covid 19 is a new virus that scientists knew little about (and still don't know much more), it's more easily transmissible than measles and there's no vaccine. I think the reaction is perfectly understandable, born out of fear. In time it may become like other viruses in terms of how we feel about it but I doubt it, not until there's substantial immunity in the population either through vaccine or natural immunity which again, unlike measles isn't a given.

I find OP totally bizarre. I didn't predict the denialism from the UK and batshit insanity and cruelty coming out of the US. Turns out, everyone is crazier than I gave them credit for -- and I was hardly an optimist.

And the most common way is societal boredom, we just get fed up of being fearful, and learn to live with it.

Yes. And that is starting now - whether due to actual boredom of the lockdown, or through people wanting to earn a living again/save their businesses/get workers back in etc.

The dreadful choice is: more lives lost to the virus, from getting everybody out and about again - or an even further damaged economy. It's a horrific choice, and I'm already dreading a second wave.

I'm not sure when my parents will be comfortable/allowed out again. I don't think my stepdad will be able to return to work again ever - in his 70s, health issues that would mean corona could well finish him off, and used to commute to a London college (he's a lecturer).

I'm seriously thinking of going to see them now, while we've all been self-isolating for weeks - because once the kids are back at school, the risk of infecting them will be much higher.