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The comparison to Spanish flu?

43 replies

thewheelsonthebus23 · 15/05/2020 15:48

Why the constant comparison to Spanish flu? In my opinion, it’s closer in relation and similar to SARs number one. Which disappeared after it basically burnt itself out. I might be wrong, but I don’t see why the constant comparison is needed to Spanish flu.

OP posts:
hoodathunkit · 15/05/2020 18:01

I imagine most viral diseases do.

I don't think that they do.

Viruses are diverse and all around us and most of them don't harm us at all.

Some even help us. As antibiotic resistance increases scientists are looking to phage therapies to fight bacterial infections. Bacteriophages, or phages for short, are viruses that attack bacteria

Viruses that harm humans and other mammals attack us in a variety of ways. Most of them don't cause cytokine storms

hoodathunkit · 15/05/2020 18:02

I’ve accepted this as fact but recently found out that there are several theories about why the Spanish flu was so deadly in the second wave. A more recently popular one is that recently-off patent aspirin was prescribed in huge doses (that wouldn’t be prescribed now) and contributed massively to the death toll. I was reading an account which quoted a saying ‘wake up feeling ill and die on your way to work’. It killed so quickly and sounds terrifying.

Interesting

I will research that further

Thanks :)

IcedPurple · 15/05/2020 18:07

Viruses are diverse and all around us and most of them don't harm us at all.

Most viruses cause disease. Not always to humans, but to some living being. That is one of the major ways in which they are different from bacteria.

hoodathunkit · 15/05/2020 18:08

This is very interesting on the human immune system and autoimmune diseases

It may be that helminth (worm) therapy can be studied to help us to fine tune the human immune system

Obviously it is inadvisable to infect yourself with helminths, don't do this at home folks, but fascinating nonethless

hoodathunkit · 15/05/2020 18:09

Most viruses cause disease. Not always to humans, but to some living being. That is one of the major ways in which they are different from bacteria.

This is a very common misunderstanding that is addressed in this lecture

Flaxmeadow · 15/05/2020 18:11

Because the death rate (would have been without lockdown) and how infectious it is are very similar to Spanish Flu

hoodathunkit · 15/05/2020 18:24

Scientifically minded readers may also find polydnaviruses interesting.

They are viruses that parasitoid wasps inject into their hosts to suppress the host's immune system so that they can lay eggs on the host and the eggs are not rejected.

Incredibly some polydnaviruses have an immunosuppressant effect on mammals (mice)

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096825

This raises the possibility that the polydnaviruses of parasitoid wasps could come to our aid in developing therapies to help fine tune the human immune system to deal with cytokine storms.

Still a lot of work to do but a fascinating area of research

Cornettoninja · 15/05/2020 19:35

All those times I’ve happily swatted a wasp asking what it even does.... sorry you viscous little grails of immunity secrets Grin

ihatethecold · 15/05/2020 20:43

Can you summarise about the body having 2 immune systems.
Sounds interesting.

hoodathunkit · 16/05/2020 10:48

I am not an immunologist but I’ll give it my best shot.

Firstly, the real expert, Prof Judi Allen, is delivering a lecture in this video and I would advise watching it, even if a lot of it goes over your head (it did mine) because with a few careful views you can pick up the basic elements. The lecturer has a tendency to speak quickly sometimes re complex issues, but try to just stay with it and understand the basic stuff as much as you can, while accepting that some will go over your head. If you feel inspired to learn in greater detail you can learn a lot using the www and the academic literature.

So my, possibly flawed, understanding of it is as follows:

From what I can discern, Prof Allen posits that there are 2 components to the human immune system, each one operates separately, so it can be posited that there are 2 separate human immune systems.

The first, Th1/17, is like your personal army of fighters that deals with huge numbers of tiny invaders. Heavily armed with a variety of weaponry, should your body be invaded by a virus or bacteria, your body’s army rushes out in force and fights the invader.

This army is a rapid response force and it is huge. It needs to be because harmful infections threaten to overwhelm the body and possibly kill you. Thus, your body is invaded by a viral or bacterial infection, your body’s army gets tooled up and rushes out rapidly with weapons flailing in huge numbers. If all is well it overwhelms the invading bad guys and you get well.

a brief step away from the video -

Your body’s army learns from this fight about the nature of the opponent and, hopefully, develops a level of immunity should it encounter the same opponent again.

However things can go wrong with your own personal army. Your body can produce so many soldiers, in such a state of excitement that they start to attack your body and cause a hyper-inflammatory response, known as a cytokine storm. In such an instance the body’s defensive forces are fighting against the body. So you get a friendly fire situation with massive collateral damage to the point where the body’s own defence forces turn against it. This is a cytokine storm, a catastrophic immune response.

back to the video -

The second human immune system, Th2, is concerned with would healing and dealing with the damage to the body caused by helminths (parasitic worms), much bigger invaders than microbes, in much smaller numbers that create a different kind of damage.

Rather than an army, this immune system is more like your body’s internal repair force. It does not need to mobilise an overwhelming force like the army does. It is always there, labouring away, mending the damage to the body caused by injuries and by parasitic worms.

Over the millions of years that humans have evolved we have evolved alongside various helminths who have used our bodies as hosts. Some of them are relatively benign, some are extremely dangerous. Most are in the middle and do not kill us but may cause internal injuries that require wound healing over a protracted period as the human lives their life. This immune system is, compared to Th1, anti-inflammatory in its action.

link
journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1002003

Now here is the really interesting point made by Prof Allen is that the type 1 and type 2 immune systems are counter regulatory - they operate independently of each other.

Thus there is the Th1/17 immune system that is essential for fighting microbial infections, but that can, if things go wrong, cause a potentially fatal, hyper-inflammatory immune response (cytokine storm).

Then there is the Th2 system that has evolved to manage wound healing including tissue damage caused by parasitic worms and is anti-inflammatory, or has significant anti-inflammatory qualities.

away from the first video, this second video is fascinating

Associate Professor Dr Sheila Donnelly - The therapeutic benefit of a parasitic worm

More than one third of the world's population is infected with parasite worms, ranging from the relatively harmless pinworm, to pathogenic worms that cause cancer, anaemia and elephantiasis. At first sight, it may be difficult to see any possible benefit to humans from infection with these fiendish parasites. Dr Sheila Donnelly shares how parasitic worms could be used as a therapeutic treatment to cure debilitating autoimmune diseases such as multiple sclerosis, type-1 diabetes and Crohn's disease.

hoodathunkit · 16/05/2020 11:22

another video of possible interest

Cytokine Storm in COVID-19

It is important to understand that Covid 19 is a new disease and that some patients with severe disease present with diverse unusual / unexplained morbidities so managing cytokine storms is not the only challenge to conquering this disease

Now, in the above video, the cytokines IL6, IL10 and TNF-a (pronounced isle 6, isle 10 and tumor necrosis factor alpha - at 2.20 in the video) are described as being significant to covid disease cytokine storms

All of these cytokines have evolved to deal with human helminth infections
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992848/
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11859129
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/pim.12113
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11859129
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19564380

What does it all mean?

I don't really know, a bit beyond my field of knowledge, but I would tentatively speculate that we may be able to use the DNA of parasitic worms to fine tune the human immune system to dampen hyper-inflammatory immune responses (cytokine storms)

I am happy to be corrected by any passing immunlogist obviously :)

hoodathunkit · 16/05/2020 11:35

On a complete tangent

I was reading a story in the news about dogs being trained to detect coronavirus infections through their olfactory sense.

This is a really great idea, however there is a non-profit organisation doing sterling work in this respect already using giant African pouched rats, HeroRATs

These amazing animals have been trained to detect landmines and tuberculosis, they are even training them to detect armadillos

They have an incredible sense of smell and we should be urgently exploring the potential for these rats to detect coronavirus

The company doing this sterling work is APOPO, they have a page here about coronavirus, they say it will take 6 months or so to train the rats, I hope the UK is supporting this wonderful organisation and looking to work with them ASAP

www.apopo.org/en/latest/2020/04/HeroRATs-and-COVID-19

ihatethecold · 16/05/2020 13:09

@hoodathunkit

Thank you, such a detailed summary. its very interesting and completely new to me.

I saw the dogs on the news this morning in training, so clever.

hoodathunkit · 16/05/2020 13:46

All those times I’ve happily swatted a wasp asking what it even does.... sorry you viscous little grails of immunity secrets

wonderful comment, made me lol

Grin

The wasps you swat are completely different to the parasitoid wasps that inject their unfortunate hosts with polydnavirus

They are all wasps but the parasitoid wasps generally don’t sting and are usually very small. They are incredibly diverse lifeforms and there are probably thousands of different species of parasitoid wasps yet to be identified.

Also some are highly specialised with some species targeting only a particular insect species as a host

There are parallels between parasitoid wasps and bacteriophages, especially in relation to the targeting of insects and arachnids / bacteria.

Bacteriophages are viruses target that specific bacteria and leave other bacteria alone. Parasitoid wasps evolve parallel to their hosts and, while some target diverse species, many target specific hosts and leave other bugs alone.

This specialist targeting of the host makes them interesting.

With antibiotics, they kill the bad bugs but kills the good bugs too. Same with insecticides targeted at horticultural pests. Specialist parasitoid wasps target only the insect they evolved alongside as a host. Bacteriophages are viruses that evolved alongside the bacteria that they target.

Some cool videos about parasitoids

a wasp uses a virus to brainwash and exploit a caterpillar

an emerald jewel wasp targeting an American cockroach

these are amazing

One important thing to learn from all of this is that the preservation of diverse ecosystems benefits humanity as we have so much to learn about different species and how they might benefit us in terms of researching new medicines.

New diseases occur in nature frequently and we need to develop our armoury of medicines as best we can. This is difficult when we are destroying different potentially beneficial species and their habitats on a daily basis.

hoodathunkit · 16/05/2020 13:49

ihatethecold

You are very welcome

Please bear in mind that I am not an immunologist I simply find this stuff fascinating

I am hoping that my posts might attract the attention of someone clever and suitably qualified who can tell us more and correct any mistakes I may have made :)

Flaxmeadow · 16/05/2020 13:52

@hoodathunkit
Thanks for all your replies. Very interesting

hoodathunkit · 16/05/2020 13:54

Some inspiring videos about phage therapy

I'm hoping that readers will feel inspired to research these things for themselves :)

Please be careful about helminth therapy though

It is fascinating and has great therapeutic potential, however there are various quacks on the www offering advice on helminth therapy and even helminths for sale.

if you are intersted in helminth therapy please consult a suitably qualified docor and don't just buy parasitic worms from sone dubious source

hoodathunkit · 16/05/2020 14:01

my pleasure Flaxmeadow :)

I have had an extraordinarily challenging life and have learned to be resilient.

It is my experience that the people you think will help you disappear and that the cavalry often comes to the rescue from unexpected sources.

Rats, viruses, wasps and all manner of things that might seem horrible or scary can offer all kinds of benefits.

Also, when I trained martial arts I learned that any attacking force, if used in the right way, can become a defensive and even counter-force.

I would like to share my perspective that if we put our prejudices to one side, hold on to not knowing, and are open to experiementing and learning from experience we can gain insights into solving all kinds of problems.

:)

That's it from me for now, have a wonderful day everyone :)

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