Has the government got paid posters here to quash any dissenting voices?

[ssd]

There's always been robust discussions on politics on mn, but I've noticed lately when ever someone questions the government's track record on covid, certain posters pop up with very similar agendas, defending them to the hilt and trying to throw the discussion round to something else.

I'd like to see when posters actually joined mn, some newer posters must spend all their time on here defending the indefensible.

It doesn't. Nobody said Labour's good at apologising and reconciling. Part of the Labour Party was fighting Blair whilst they were in government and when that faction held sway, the Blairite types were fighting them.

I personally think that's a bit of a simplistic analysis of what.... 25 years plus of labour party history?

@TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum.

And what did you do in the war, Daddy?

I created agitprop for FB and insta feeds, and spent 15 hours a day tweeting...

No party officially will say they've cocked up,
but people who support both parties will say so, unless they are overly invested

For some people, who you vote for is a minor part of life and maybe to be reconsidered each election

For others, it's like a religion and anyone who disagrees is a heartless Tory / dangerous lefty or whatever

At least 40 years if you include the SDP and probably longer than that.

Whenever I point something out that might be anti Johnson a friend says “Oh! I like him”.and “I don’t want to hear.any more bad news”. So what do you do? Put your head in the sand and you become deaf as well.

And I hate to say this (and I'm def not a blair fan given Iraq and his almost demonic support and profiteering of bombing the fuck out civilians since leaving government) but Blair DID actually manage to get labour elected. And whilst as I've made clear I don't support his agenda (ignoring mass immigration from the EU and it's impact on middle england small towns and therefore it's impact on ideas about immigration and multiculturalism for decades to come is one i can add to the immoral disaster that was the iraq invasion) we did get tax credits from that era. Trashed and overtake by our personal marie antoinette Mr IDS and his UC agenda now.

Tax credits were actually massively undiscriminating and based on household income rather than hmm is it a single parent or a naice married couple and were not humiliating and 'cap in hand' ish. They were a basic measure of you're working the hours you're required yet you cannot survive in the cost of living we're now facing. No need to go to a job centre, no need to go and apologise for the fact your work was underpaid or your health meant that actually you could be on full benefits but you're managing to work 16hrs a week and being supported in doing that.

Of course in an ideal world they'd have made employers pay proper wages instead but hey they allowed single mums such as myself to go back to work on the hours we could manage and have our income topped in such a way that we weren't trapped on benefits because we'd be worse off in work.

So no Blair wasn't ideal but he managed to get labour elected into power for the first time in god knows how long and they made lots of mistakes but they also were able with something as seemingly trivial (to those who they weren't life changing for) as tax credits.

People on the left sometimes seem to forget that the object is to get elected so you actually have the power to make a difference to people's lives. The objective is not to appear woke and great on tumblr.

Sorry long rant

re footing the bill for the pandemic:

The EU is not a United States of Europe, not a single country
If members ever choose to become one, then they'll subsidise the poorer areas more

.... although looking at the vast regional inequalities, including life expectancy in the UK,
I'm not sure how well the UK does this atm

Look at the outrage of some posters in places like Cornwall, at the idea that people elsewhere might want to visit and bring disease

The EU is a highly integrated trade bloc, which has added a lot of rules to try to get a "Level Playing Field"
and those rules cover employment rights, environmental laws etc to avoid businesses in one member starting a race to the bottom

FOM is an enabler for the Single market - which was mostly created

It is a "regulatory superpower" - global rules and product standards are increasingly set to the EU agenda

BUT as I said, it's not a country
and does not have the obligations of a country

oops iPad:
FOM is an enabler for the Single market - which was mostly created from UK ideas

People on the left sometimes seem to forget that the object is to get elected so you actually have the power to make a difference to people's lives.

Alot of people in the north didn't feel the difference, they felt left behind. And so began the slow road to Brexit as the centrists championed lost causes from coalition governments, to remain movements to Change UK.

re Blair, I can never get round to acepting someone did well . except for helping to kill a million people far away !

which led to a poor vaccuum there,
the creation of highly dangerous terrorist organisations
and millions of refugees
..... all of which have come home to roost here

But I'm a floating - usually non - voter and couldn't care less if Labour ever get into power or Tories stay forever,
just that somebody competent is running things

I was thinking more of how negotiations were proceeding @TheHoneyBear , I am sure June was an important month with regards to the possibility of an extension to the negotiations, which would seem the most pragmatic thing to do given the current situation. Although it could be argued that it might be more politically expedient to continue if you want to make concessions, that would ordinarily cause consternation amongst your core voter demographic ?

Of course someone whose aim is always to get Labour elected will jump on the bandwagon against EU immigration,
or whatever they think will get votes, to get in Blair, Corbyn, Staemer or whoever

I'm a centrist and I'm not bothered by Tory governments - generally lower taxes anyway
So I campaign for the issues I believe in
and if people vote that I pay lower taxes to subsiside them, fine by me.

I'm not going to disagree with you on a lot of that but my point is that bits of the Labour Party think other bits are the wrong sort of socialist or other type of lefty. In general not just specifics.

No bigchoc - I appreciate what you're saying and what it currently is appearing to be but the prime objective of the EU is to be 'ever closer'. The end game and the deal that most Europeans see themselves as signed up to being is one 'state'. Hence one currency. Hence Schengen and European courts. etc.

If Europe says you know what Italy the cost of the refugee problem (for which we made orders about how you must handle it which you followed) is on you, the fact that the global pandemic happened to land in your area first and took off like wildfire because none of us were prepared for it is on you and your bill to pay. If they say these things why on earth would Italy want to be a member? Why would they contribute towards and follow the rules of that central body if that central body said you're on your own when geography (immigration) or luck (pandemics) meant that Europe's problems landed more heavily on you than other nations?

It's already strained by the immigration issues. I used to live and work with Italians in the middle east and it was 'interesting' to hear their perspective on issues and on the level of responsibility they felt their country and economy was having to take for decisions that were made centrally in Europe.

It either is a unified body that looks after all it's members equally and aims for economic equality throughout or it isn't. If it isn't then nations like Italy and Greece who have really struggled under the decisions and policies of central powers are of course going to question what the hell are we in this game for?

Fair play BigChoc - competence would be lush wouldn't it? Imagine!

Well, sure, why not? After all, as they say, they all in this together.

Agree with you @TheHoneyBadger about tax credits. They were enabling, not stultifying and infantilising, particularly for women (and children). They were a grown-up benefit.

pastmybestbeforedate: (great name btw ) They have clearly and unambiguously said that they won't be looking for extension dates and fully intend to leave at the appointed leave date regardless of what deal was on the table. This was asked a lot in the early press conferences of covid19 times eg., 'given the situation will you be looking to agree an extension to brexit negotiations' etc. I remember it being asked and in constrast to the general waffling, bumbling, wombling rhetoric it was clearly answered with a no we will not be looking at extensions and we will cease to in the EU at the agreed date even if that means 'no deal' and going with-a thing i can suddenly not remember the name or acronym for because we've been so busy talking about covid and R rates and epidemiology for the last couple of months that maybe brain has chucked out previous stuff but basically world trade standards or some such.

It was a really clear answer and the question was asked a lot by journalists in the early weeks and the answer never deviated and was always that concise and unambiguous. So no I don't think we're going to be making special requests or begging extra time or concessions.

As hideous as it sounds I think this horrendous global situation actually works in favour of brexit negotiations/lack of negotiations. I know how awful this sounds and I'm not saying this is the morality that should guide us - but! - there's going to be little in the way of international trade of goods at the minute anyway (beyond fierce and merciless bidding on ppe) and whatever trading at world trade standars/rates whatever you call it costs us in reality it is way less than it would have cost us to have been required to pay 1/3 of the bill for the whole of the EU's covid expenses and bail outs to struggling member states in the upcoming 'recession'

Be you left or right, local or central, global or national etc. you can objectively see that that no matter how expensive this disaster is going to be it's going to be less expensive for UK given we're no longer sharing the bill for the whole of Europe with France and Germany.

Well I for one believe in 'never mind what they say , watch what they do' , when it comes to politics, so we will see @TheHoneyBear

Many of the problems today are a legacy of the Blair and Brown governments.

It was they who started to dismantle the safety net for the sick and disabled. It's very telling they got rid of the DSS replacing it with the DWP. Social security replaced with work and pensions (it was a warning sign of things to come for those of working age but unable to work).

It was the Blair and Brown governments that introduced the system where private companies are paid by the taxpayer to perform 'assessments' on people in need of disability benefits. It was the same governments that introduced the housing benefit cuts - paving the way for the further cuts Cameron and Osborne made. It led to the increased homelessness of today. Yes so did Right to Buy. But, although introduced by Thatcher, Labour didn't stop it.

The freedom of movement was devastating for poorer people. Especially those in large cities such as London. Already overcrowded. It would've been fine had Blair and Brown invested in housing, public services including schools and hospitals, all the infrastructure required to support a growing population. But they didn't. Some people got rich off the back of exploiting poorer people (British or not): cheap labour and fodder for slum housing. Those who did well out if it include Tony and Cherie. They own a flourishing multi million pound property empire.

Labour also saddled the NHS with the ongoing crippling PFI debt.

I'm a floating voter btw. You don't have to be an avowed Conservative to see the great damage the last Labour governments did. They're not alone there. The austerity policy of Cameron and Osborne was dreadful. And an economic failure. We ended up in more debt. People need money to spend in order for us to have a healthy and balanced economy.

Some people love the government, or at least the PM. That's how twats like him get on - they get fanboys/fan girls for free.

That's how twats like him get on - they get fanboys/fan girls for free

To be fair, that happens on both sides of the House (I'm thinking of the cringe making Glastonbury appearance from JC)

How did this thread end up in a discussion on Blair?

I feel like I've fallen into a timewarp.

Just bumping this thread to remind people that something is currently rotten in the State of Denmark Mumsnet.

Relentless and no sense of humour.

This is why I'm surprised claig hasn't reappeared.