So outbreaks are only in care homes and hospitals. What am I missing?

[mayoral]

In the governments press conference yesterday they said infection rates remain high because of outbreaks in two places: care homes and hospitals. They said transmission within the community was small and well below R1.

So why can't we contain care homes and hospitals and get on with our lives now??

[Baaaahhhhh]

Me thinks the ministers are telling slight porkies, listen to the scientists

They are not lies, and they are listening to the scientists. They are the ones who have highlighted the issue. Why is it so unbelievable when you have a closed community of people, where the virus, gets in, it then reaches everyone on that community, and because they also happen to be the most at risk of dying, tHey do. Any closed community has had the same issues, cruise ships, aircraft carriers, religious cults. The only difference is that the death rate varies with the age profile. Aircraft carrier, no deaths, care homes, high deaths. It's hardly rocket science.

[Derbygerbil]

It’s amazing that some care staff are both able to willing to move in, and that they can be accommodated, but that will only be a tiny minority.

Unless @mayoral has other ideas she’s not shared, the only way I can see that this would work is to literally enslave a huge section of the population and their families (as people point out, it’s not just doctors, nurses and carers but cleaners, security staff, caretakers, hotel workers, bus drivers transporting the “slaves” to hospital) and force them into incarceration and work for the foreseeable future.

[peoplepleaser1]

Think of it like this:

What percentage of care home residents and employees are getting tested?

What percentage of hospital admissions, patients and NHS staff are getting tested?

Now compare that to the percentage of people outside these settings who are getting tested, plus the likelihood that patients in both settings are likely to be more unwell than elsewhere.

This has to skew data to look like these two settings have a nighter infection rate than elsewhere- no?

[Ponoka7]

@EricaNernie
"is there a problem in prisons? or do we not care enough to be told?"

Prisons have been featured on News broadcasts. Prisoners have been released early. Special rules have been brought in for vulnerable prisoners, including pregnant women and those with newborns. Four Prison officers, both male and female have died. Isolation in prisons is easier but again mental health will be dropping which could lead to more violence and suicide.

A big issue raging is the immigration detention centres. These were featured on last nights news. Especially now we know that the BAME communities have a higher death rate.

This is why people shouldn't blank out the news.

I've worked in care homes and I know people who are still working in them. None of them could just pack up and move. Most are supporting vulnerable relatives or neighbours. If they don't have children they have pets. Many are working two jobs. Some have medical issues of their own and still need to go to hospital appointments etc. We'd need a big change in the benefits and housing system to allow for this, as well. But it just couldn't be done. People would go into burn out.

The population on the Isle of Wight is less than most of our major cities and is completely isolated. It can't be compared.

[vodkaredbullgirl]

Yes lock us all up lol. I go to work come home and dont go out anywhere. Even my 2 adult dds dont go out. Luckly we have had no cases in the home i work in.

[Lemonblast]

Thingbob so who replaces the nursing and care staff who are infected, get sick and die during their ‘4-6’ week lockdown?
But yeah all those old woman carers aren’t really important to their own families and grand children.
Small price to pay so that we can get KFC open again.

[theyarereallytakingthepissnow]

@Connie222 well said. Don't think people realise how poorly paid this sector is and the reality of the work carers, support workers etc do for +-£9 an hour. Most wouldn't do it for triple the wage let alone do it and not go home afterwards. That's what I hope the people clapping each week are thinking about.

[Derbygerbil]

.... so who replaces the nursing and care staff who are infected, get sick and die during their ‘4-6’ week lockdown?

Doesn’t matter... they are sealed off. We don’t need to know. As long as the rest of us can get back to normal.

[fromlittleacorns]

Thingybob interesting suggestion about the 4 weeks on 4 weeks off.

Totally agree nobody should be forced to do it and there could be very substantial financial compensation for those who do. Those who dont want to could be furloughed? In summer and possibly beyond some students and other young people without dc or family caring responsibilities may be willing to take jobs under lock in conditions - eg in the spare hotel rooms - though they could only stand in for the jobs that can be quickly trained for (obviously i realise that many cant!).

And yes, just to repeat, it would be massively expensive - but so is the current lockdown, which has not kept the virus out of care homes. In view of the health, social and emotional costs of lockdown for some of the other most vulnerable people, including dc, i think its good at least to discuss possible alternatives.

[Inkpaperstars]

thanks @Mummyoflittledragon

[AndNoneForGretchenWieners]

Most people who are furloughed don't want to be. They would rather be back at work. So your awful comment about furlough is ridiculous, because the only people capable of ending the current situation are the government, and they are looking at the bigger picture. To slag off anyone who is furloughed is greatly missing the point.

By the way I have a serial correspondent at work who writes obsessively about one issue, it is sad really but they have become convinced that we hold the answer to their problem, while we have advised them over 30 times that we cannot help. Anyway they have taken to emphasising their qualifications at the end of every letter, with a PS of "I'm not as stupid as you think I am". Your update reminded me of that.

[Thingybob]

Lemonblast, if the carers are going into uninfected homes then there would be no chance of the care staff getting sick. It's too late now to be thinking that way for homes that already have an outbreak.

[fromlittleacorns]

Peoplepleaser that is an interesting point about the stats - yes we are bound to ‘see’ more cases in care homes and hospitals as thats where testing is more likely.
The concern is that workers will then ‘seed’ the virus back into the community. Whats the prospect of containing this if all Nhs and care workers have adequate pp, daily testing, and contact tracing is focused on them? ( though i realise that poses huge logistical issues).

[LimitIsUp]

If the government has any sense, they will spend the next couple of weeks really focusing on care homes and giving them the help and support that they need to contain covid, regardless of whether they are private sector

[Derbygerbil]

The irony is those such as @mayoral that are moaning so bitterly that life isn’t returning to normal, and think their childish ideas of how to “sort it out” amount to serious public policy, are generally the very ones who helped get us into the mess (along with Government mismanagement) by minimising Covid and insisting that we should just carry on because it’s “just the flu”. Their toxic mixture of selfishness and stupidity has a lot to answer for.

[ReinventingMe]

Moving forward, perhaps care homes should try and employ some staff who can live on site. Hotels and pubs do this. Some people, not all of course, may welcome not paying rent, having their meals sorted and be a win win situation.

As for women staying in care homes when they have their own families back home, definitely not unless offered a hell of a lot of money to do so.

[Lemonblast]

Thingybob so we’re going to totally isolate care staff for 14 days before they’re allowed contact with patients? To make sure they’re not infected? Where are they going to live for those 14 days? In a hotel room with room service?
Totally reasonable.

[mumwon]

Having a degree in economics doesn't make you an expert in how people & society works - however it has been suggested that many people with an economic degree vote tory - especially if they follow macroeconomics theories to the exclusion of understanding how society & people manage/ work in the individual level
So as many pp within the field of health & social care & NHS have already told you - care homes are within & part of our society & the multiple types of staffing - including casual staff who work in other care homes - live within general society. If they were supplied & supported at this time by central government with ppe & tests were freely available & an awareness of the risk was considered & planned for we wouldn't be in this situation. To suggest excluding & imprisoning the staff indefinitely is impractical & doesn't take into account also that everybody may have -for instance -other medical needs. For instance, what if someone has a medical need? Do we say:"tough-no doctor can visit & you cant come to hospital?" or if they need an emergency plumber for heating or water? Or perhaps we should say once you go in you cant leave?
Of course (if the staff were provided with adequate quality & sufficient ppe) staff need to use ppe & take proper care -but lets remember we are talking about people with other responsibilities & that people living in the care homes are not responsible for being victims of this diseases.
You also have to think that no one really knows whether they carry this disease & even if they can catch again & transmit it. Its a complex situation & no knowledge of economic practices gives you a specialist insight into how to solve it -we are talking about people not balance sheets

[Lemonblast]

Derbygerbil true.
At least you’ll get your family bucket.

Would we let their families know they’re dead? Would they care?

[myworkingtitle]

fromlittleacorns I think it would have to be huge financial incentives to tempt people. There’s only so far a sense of duty & the greater good carries one! Just thinking about how much my kids would miss DH if he had to stay at the hospital.

[CherryPavlova]

Living on site? Hard enough to recruit to adult social care already. It will become increasingly difficult under Brexit too.
Many homes don’t have space and it’s seen as poor practice. Many single nurses and doctors used to live on site at hospitals but it’s expensive and so the accommodation was closed. Many people now want a relationship and family as well as ‘a vocation’ so there simply wouldn’t be the accommodation.
Now if the government built houses that offered high quality subsidised housing to staff from hard to reach specialities and hard to recruit locations....... it’s not going to happen but where it does, it’s effective in recruiting.

Funding isn’t going to allow increased salaries. As is, fewer and fewer registered nurses are employed, being replaced with care assistants.

There is also the issue of community care which isn’t considered.
Then children are beginning to be identified in the USA with some sort of post Covid multi-organ inflammatory syndrome akin to Kawasaki’s. Not in huge numbers (15 I think in one hospital) but enough for parents to not want their children infected, if possible. Certainly appears to have a higher complication incidence than measles.

[fromlittleacorns]

I agree my working title - huge financial incentives would be necessary. And i think it would never be able to cover 100% of nhs and care workers - many workers would understandably not be able to (or be willing to, which is also absolutely understandable - definitely not suggesting any should be made to). But maybe, with adequate ppe, and testing/tracing focused on the others, it could reduce the risk very substantially.

Yes, still accept that it would be very expensive - but so is continued lockdown. In financial terms yes, and so many other costs as well. (I do realise Partially lifting lockdown wont prevent all the economic costs, for many reasons including falling worldwide demand. But it could reduce them?)

[Grandmi]

What candothisnow said!! Why should key workers be locked up in their workplace so that YOU can carry on as normal !! Beyond selfish 👿Oh and funnily enough these people have families and homes they want to escape to after a long 12 hour shift.

[vodkaredbullgirl]

Im wondering if this post will still be here, when I wake up. 12 1/2 hour night shift and another 1 tonight.

I will chain myself to the care home.

[Gregoria67]

The virus is getting into care homes when elderly people are discharged from hospital into said homes, and not tested. My friend's mother, who had dementia, had a fall four weeks ago in her care home, and was taken to hospital. She was discharged back to her care home, and guess what, 2 days later she started coughing and now she's died. Two of the staff have now tested positive.

Another friend works in a care home locally, and virtually the same thing has happened - elderly person admitted to hospital from home - when he was ready to be discharged, the family felt he could no longer cope at home, so they found a care home for him. Within days of arriving at the care home, he's got a temperature, and tested positive. He's now recovered thank goodness, but one of the staff is now seriously ill.