Concerned that the government not releasing stats on child deaths

[Thewheelsarefallingoff]

Prompted by discussions on schools reopening; I tried to find more data on children seriously ill with CV and deaths of children.

On 27th April, the BBC reported the potentially fatal syndrome in children, at the time of the report, 20 children were in ITU with this in the UK: www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-52439005

World meters just doesn't seem to have the stats for the UK by age and demographics:
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

When I click on the link for age and demographics it takes me to a page with figures for New York City:
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

I am concerned that we won't have the information in order for us to make reasoned decisions on whether to send our children back to school.

Does anyone have some reliable data on this?

@MRex other countries publish this data on a daily basis clearly. I dont see why it should be hidden or only for sage members. I want clarity and not to be searching and trying to work it out. Recovery data is given by i think nearly every country on worldometers with the glaring gap for the uk, i think WHO have also mentioned this, Why i want this is not relevant but it has enabled me track progress in another country and has been quite accurate for me.

However the op want info on childrens statistics and my bugbear is more about lack of transparency in other data so will bow out of this thread. However if someone has actual no.s for the info i want i would be grateful.

MRex that is extremely disingenuous . My anxiety levels are fine, thanks. I'm going to the supermarket, going for walks with the DC. DH going into work. I'm fine, thanks for your concern.

So now you are saying that the procedures involved make the data incorrect? That time passing invalidates the data sets!!!

You should go and read what the ONS says it's data actually is. They don't have a and can't collate data that has not been generated. Death and cause of death have always, in some cases, been registered at different times, of necessity. What else can be done?

You want the impossible. Immediate real life data is not possible. We don't all live and die within the internet... The Matrix was a film!

@Humphriescushion - the UK didn't test everyone, so recovery stats are pointless because largely they only include the early cases or the most severe who were hospitalised. Different countries have different views on complete recovery / no longer infectious / "better" but still seeing occupational therapy etc; so the data you see is variable to the point of meaningless in any case. Without antibody testing over time (tests only just created) nobody knows if mild cases give immunity, nor how long for. I'm interested in why you find that particular data to be valuable and which definitions you think should be used to judge recovery?

OP are you suggesting that far more children have died than the 9 or whatever it is reported, and that the government is covering it up?

"There is no conspiracy."

It would be impossible to create such a conspiracy,
becaue it would have to involve at least all the governments in Western countries

• and they could never agree on anything

I live in Germany and the death statistics for children are:

2 died age 0-9
1 died aged 11-19

That syndrome is known and doctors here are watching closely for cases, but no child so far reported as seriously ill from it

I want recovery stats for those in hosptial with covid 19. Or if you like for those they say were tested. THey are not pointless to me and i am not sure why you need know why i want this info. I am happy to take whatever definintion the hospital takes as recovered. Of course i can see lots of what about, this cant be done, but it has been done elsewhere.

@titchy i am querying the data the that's available and questioning whether there was more up to date information out there.

Even if schools do start reopening in June we will have more information to work with than we do now. It will be several years before we have the perspective to see how the government handled this and where the turning points were.

Unfortunately, this is not a government I have faith in, they have consistently thrown poorer, vulnerable people under the bus and consistently underfunded public services IMO.

This interactive dashboard gives (plus other stats):

COVID-19 deaths by age group
Cumulative deaths by date
Hospital beds available
Hospital beds occupied
ICU beds available and occupied, including the number occupied by COVID-19 patients
Number of COVID-19 hospital discharges
Patients in hospital broken down by age group
Cumulative numbers of patient admissions and discharges for COVID-19

Sorry link goes to a press release- this is the dashboard. They're currently uploading and refreshing data.

app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiZGYxNjYzNmUtOTlmZS00ODAxLWE1YTEtMjA0NjZhMzlmN2JmIiwidCI6IjljOWEzMGRlLWQ4ZDctNGFhNC05NjAwLTRiZTc2MjVmZjZjNSIsImMiOjh9

Oh come on, it's easy to see why people don't trust the government information.

They weren't honest about the deaths in care homes were they? That was only released due to the media forcing it into the public arena. Of course the government knew about it way before the public did so why weren't they upfront about it?

PPE is another case. I'm sick of seeing ministers insist that X million of items are being delivered, everyone has what they need etc when the truth is that one glove is counted as one item and rather than supply what's needed they've changed the rules around necessary PPE so that a single item piece can now be used for hours and doesn't need changing between patients, rather than N95 masks needing to be worn it's now just surgical masks in many areas, including A and E while treating positive patients.

Government claiming no one was denied an ITU bed or a ventilator which is a version of the truth. People weren't denied them that's true, because many were refused admission in the first place.

If the government want us to trust them they need to prove they can be trusted.

@humphries cushion, the U.K. are not collating recovered statistics and that is transparent as in they’re openly not releasing any figures. That isn’t because they’re hiding anything that’s because there will be criteria to count a person as recovered that requires resources to follow up and verify. These aren’t resources that have been allocated at this moment in time because it’s not a priority. Resources like tests, staffing and premises to conduct appointments in.

I have seen U.K. data giving specific ICU mortality stats but that’s because it’s much easier to collect data on a much smaller group.

Again you need to be realistic about what it is you’re looking for. Recovery numbers will definitely come through at some point but they will be based on accurate criteria.

We've got one of the worst death rates in Europe. How is that possibly manipulating the data to give the best case scenario?

Yet again other countries are doing it and not sure it takes vast resources, i am happy to just have no.s discharged from hospital. I most of the information i would like is avialable in northern ireland and i believe scotland. Would be nice if available for England, i dont think it is necessarily being hidden but when nearly every other country on the worldometers site has recovery info i dont see why England cant.

@Humphriescushion I've shared a page with that information ( well at 14.00 it will be updated)

Given that the data comes from deaths registered and that takes a week, two or three where a coroner is involved, I think we're getting it pretty much as quickly as possible. Look at the proportion of children dead compared to the proportion as a whole. There's enough deaths overall to make a statistically valid statement that children are very very low risk of dying.

Yes i saw that @ cathy and that is i believe exactly the information i would like. Is it only for Northern Ireland though?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras but every one of your points has been highlighted by the public themselves and illustrates exactly why it would be extremely difficult for the government to hide anything.

I don’t trust and didn’t vote for this government but I also don’t believe that it is in anyway possible for them to sweep certain things under a rug or manipulate figures in this crisis because we’re all far too connected for that to be possible in this pandemic.

As an aside, some of those countries that are releasing recovery rates are using the SIR model (susceptible, infected, recovered/removed) and counting deaths together with recovered as ‘removed’ (as in unable to transmit or contract infection). It’s a perfectly legitimate model to use in that way and if our government wanted to massage the figures for the public’s delicate sensibilities they could do so with backing from the WHO and other reputable organisations who use the model in the same way.

I don't see new hospital admissions, last 24 hours discharges or carehomes on worldometer... where is that info on worldometer? Does serious/critical just mean a 'today in hospital' rather than newly admitted to hospital?

what does recovered mean on worldometer, does recovered mean still alive 4 or 6 weeks after symptoms started? Does it matter if different countries have different definitions for 'recovered'?

did USA really only have 4 deaths in last 24 hours? Or is it by the hour info?

Not sure if your post is referring to my request @ yeolde, but i was using worldometers just as one example of some information i would like - the critial care and recovery.

Worldometer doesn’t delve that deeply into the numbers and specifically for the U.K. isn’t accurate for critical cases. Worldometer gives accurate up to date totals for the U.K. for hospital deaths but not for the other categories. The U.K.’s reporting of deaths is sporadic (so for instance deaths announced today will be a collection of deaths announced over a number of previous weeks due to, I presume, verifying they were due to covid).

However NHS England releases its own figures daily which accurately attributes deaths to the date they actually happened. www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

The USA updates continuously throughout the day because each state reports separately and there a various time zones involved. If you click on it you will get a breakdown by state.

but every one of your points has been highlighted by the public themselves and illustrates exactly why it would be extremely difficult for the government to hide anything.

That was my point though. Any issue that puts the government in a bad light is suppressed until enough of the public gets it into the public domain - either by whistleblowing or some other means. Then the government put their spin on it and try to minimise it.

Take PPE - if you listened to ministers you would think that everything is under control. It's only because I've been a nurse and know what the old rules around PPE were that I can now see how the government are trying to cover this up. I'm talking to people that I know who are working in hospitals, reading accounts from people working in there and the truth of the situation is appalling and not in line with the government claims. Watch Panorama from this week that highlighted it.

Same as the claim about ITU beds - people have been denied hospital admission. The elderly have been left to die in care homes - that's how the NHS has stayed within capacity.

Once this is over and the truth emerges we will realise how badly managed this has been. It will be too late for many though.

HearHooves - the people you're 'talking to' and 'reading about' aren't necessarily representative of the NHS as a whole. There is no PPE shortage in my area and hospitals are virtually empty.

Some areas may be struggling. Many are not. You only need to look at the emergency admission stats and the lack of need of Nightingale hospitals.

Clearly it will depend on number of cases in your area won't it? If you have lots of PPE why isn't it re distributed to areas where they have not enough?

Never, in my career as a nurse, would it have been acceptable to move between patients wearing the same PPE.Never. How comes suddenly it is now?

How comes single use masks, effective for 20 minutes, can now be worn for twelve hours?

How comes drs in a and E, treating COVID19 patients are now told to only wear surgical masks not FF3 masks as they needed to last week?

As for the nightingale hospitals - well two fold. They aren't necessary because itus haven't exceeded capacity because they beds have been rationed plus I've been told that if a hospital wanted to transfer a patient to one then they had to provide staff for that patient. The hospitals couldn't do it and so opted to keep the patients themselves.