Social distancing in schools- mental health

[Myfriendanxiety]

Does anyone else feel that they would rather home school their children indefinitely than send them to a school where they have to social distance?

I really worry about the mental health of children if they are forced to sit alone at desks 2m apart from others without any proper play time or interaction. I just can’t see how this type of schooling is going to be beneficial to children and how it will create a positive learning environment.

My DS has another year before he starts school luckily- but if he were starting in September to a school system based on social distancing then I wouldn’t be sending him.

Aren't Denmark splitting them in to small groups for playtime, and letting them play properly within that group?

I don't know what Denmark are doing, I'm off to google, but this seems more realistic than 2metres apart.

Class sizes in Denmark are far smaller.

Yes I absolutely agree OP. My kids go to school to socialise and have fun, play with their friends etc. If that's damaged, they aren't going back. I'll make homeschooling work.

I can't even see how it can happen in early years and a play based primary 1 and 2. Even my p6's classroom doesn't have any traditional desks and the entire furniture and set up is based around social learning DD10 is an affectionate soul and wouldn't stay away from her friends when unsupervised

Aren't Denmark splitting them in to small groups for playtime, and letting them play properly within that group?

Groups of 2 or 3, with no interaction between groups. We can all imagine how friendly and inclusive that will be, and how upset children are going to get! It sounds like a nightmare.

They've said all along that the modelling showed very little difference in infection rates whether schools were open or closed. So schools need to be reopened as one of the first steps then wait a few weeks to see if it does or doesn't make a difference. Seems like a lot of workplaces are starting back this week or next before the lockdown ends anyway.

I've been in school with children during the lockdown.

The few we had in were generally very sensible KS2 children. None of them were there with their best friends.

We still had to give a lot of reminders about keeping their distance. Even when they were sitting on separate tables to each other, there still wasn't enough space to stay 2 metres apart at all times. Break times were impossible. The best we could do was to keep reminding them and ensure that they washed their hands and used sanitiser.

The last few days before the lockdown started, attendance was down to less than half. It was still impossible to keep them from touching each other, sneezing near each other, and sharing their pens, pencils and rubbers.

Staff still had to gather up and mark the books that the children had touched. We could only help them with their work by getting close enough to see what the problem was. First aiders still had to deal with grazed knees, bumped heads, and all the other 101 minor injuries that children are prone to in the playground. Some of the younger children still had toileting accidents and not all of them were able to manage to clean themselves up and get changed afterwards.

SD just can't realistically be maintained in schools.

Aren't Denmark splitting them in to small groups for playtime, and letting them play properly within that group?

Some children have started back in Denmark and they have limited the numbers of children per class to 10, including the adult. It obviously means children aren’t in as often as they would be normally.

I cannot imagine our government will send schools back exactly as they were in classes of 30, when other countries have put socially distancing measures in place.

Chocolatecakeandpinkcustard

Exactly.

And many people only work that directly with half a dozen people or so. Which is vastly different to 30 children.

I don’t think they’ll be kept apart they’ll just be grouped into small groups so attend 1/3 of the week with a “class” of 10. That way an infectious child is only in contact with 9 others not 29.

I think this is most likely to be what actually happens. Although all staff will be in contact with all 30 children and so they will be in indirect contact with each other via their teachers and equipment/furniture in classrooms.

And 1/3 of the week in class will make little difference to their education and won't facilitate parents returning to work (which is the real reason the government needs schools to reopen asap).

I've been working in a childcare hub set up in my LA.

It's fucking hard working trying to get children to socially distance regardless of if they are 6 or 12. I feel like I spend my group time saying "watch your distance!" "' Move up one seat please!"

Lunch time has been the easiest they totally get it then!

But honestly I've had no more than 6 children in my group using a class room for 30. How the fuck can you do it with 30 children???

They've said all along that the modelling showed very little difference in infection rates whether schools were open or closed.

I hope you aren’t referring to that one Viner report which showed nothing of the sort?

I do think a lot depends on some of the research that's being done just now. The assumption was that kids were superspreaders - like with flu. But they may not be with covid as it is behaving quite differently.

There was a chinese study released recently where they found very few younger people had developed antibodies. The thinking was that this is not because they hadn't been in contact with it but because their bodies were clearing it in a different way - a killer cells reaction rather than antibody response. This could mean lower contagion from children than usual as it's not staying in the body long enough to actually be contagious.

Those kids who are getting it are generally not nearly as symptomatic as adults. Asymptomatic spread is a feature of covid but they do seem to reckon that reduced symptoms = reduced spread so someone with no symptoms isn't going to infect nearly as many people as someone coughing and spluttering.

There was also a study looking at contagion in household, and it found that (IIRC) only about 4% of children living in a house with someone with covid actually caught it.

I hope we get a lot more clarity on these issues fairly soon as they have a pretty bit impact on the best way forward for kids

@StatisticallyChallenged

That's interesting isn't. I think lots of studies from different countries with different methodologies are all pointing the same way. Some people on here though seem wedded to the idea that kids are really significant spreaders.

I hope we get a lot more clarity on these issues fairly soon as they have a pretty bit impact on the best way forward for kids

I agree.

I've got reports to write so I'm not going to say anymore on the matter!

The discussion about schools reopening obviously needs to happen. The likelihood of children transmitting the disease needs to be understood. Changing the way school works/looks needs to be considered.

But, as I keep saying, SD between pupils and staff needs to be removed from the conversation because it ain't gonna happen and, if that is a condition of schools reopening, then it needs to be taken back to the drawing board.

Even if we could make the children social distance it wouldn’t be right. My child come home saying today a teacher was yelling your getting to close (all for a good cause I know). It’s not fair on the teachers nor the kids to put that responsibility on them. My child also stated that it’s no fun that they can’t play together as usually.
I think to expect kids to wave across the play ground in small groups to one and other is quite cruel not to mention delusional.

Some people on here though seem wedded to the idea that kids are really significant spreaders.

If I am one of those people, then that is not the case.

But SD has been cited as a key feature of reopening. If children are not transmitters, then great! But if we are going to rely on SD, then we shouldn't.

I have no idea what the report was, as I said, it was what was quoted by the government, sir Patrick vallance mentioned numerous times before schools closed that it made very little difference in the modelling.

From anecdotal experience, we had very clear symptoms and our kids had none, so based on that I have no qualms about sending my children to school with or without social distancing. As they are 6 and 4 there is no chance of them observing anything so the only option would be reduced class sizes. I think that'll sort itself out as a lot of health anxious people won't want to send their kids anyway.

Whaddyathinkofthis is talking all the sense on this thread!

But SD has been cited as a key feature of reopening. If children are not transmitters, then great! But if we are going to rely on SD, then we shouldn't.

This!

Some children have started back in Denmark and they have limited the numbers of children per class to 10, including the adult. It obviously means children aren’t in as often as they would be normally.

So the schools in Denmark haven't reeeealllly gone back then have they? People are making it sound like schools there are back to normal and they are just really good at keeping the kids apart!

Get them back in school, see what happens.

it was what was quoted by the government

It was quoted by the media, certainly. The Viner research (if you read the Lancet) said that closing schools with no other form of social distancing, wasn’t very effective. That’s not what we did though.

Professor Neil Ferguson was clear that closing schools as part of the whole U.K. program was v effective at slowing transmission.

My DH has a work colleague in Denmark. She was talking to DH on Tuesday about a project.

Her two primary school age children have gone back to school. They have staggered drop off, finish at 1pm. There are no before or after school clubs - which she used to rely on so she could go out to work.
She's dreading being told that she has to get back to 'out of the home' work as she and her DH just won't be able to do it with the current school situation.

Parents (or carers) have to drop off and pick up promptly - no waiting around.

She's getting 3 hours clear for WFH then has to pick up the kids and that's it for the day.

So she was rushing to complete the 'must concentrate on this' jobs done before she went off to get the kids. Apparently, on the first day she asked her DS what had happened at school. The answer 'we washed our hands, washed our hands, had lunch and washed our hands' - typical 6 year old really!

Whaddyathinkofthis i agree with everything you've said and i was saying the same stuff about 4 weeks ago on here when thoughts were first turning to how long schools would stay closed. Many threw their typing hands up in horror. More now seem to accept it.

I was a general TA and a one to one for 8 years in primary. (Plus DM to 4 DCs of my own, youngest is 6). I totally agree that maintaining social distancing would be impossible in the younger year groups. Forcing a meaningful version of it would make for a miserable and damaging time for the little ones. You'd have to virtually have them in straight-jackets! I just can't picture it working. They run to each other. They suck and lick equipment. They cough and they sneeze without thinking about tissues. They wipe snotty hands under tables. They cry. They need hugs. Bless their souls. They don't understand.

However, if i had to chose between schools staying closed for weeks more or opening soon i'd vote for the later. They need to go back. But please - they need to go back with the clear and honest admission that meaningful SD just wont happen and parents and staff need to understand this is the case.

So who's going to staff the classes? That i don't know. I'm glad i'm not in charge.

This is interesting

Just a single case, but a child with confirmed covid who came in to contact with a bucketload of people and passed it to none

The linked article on the UCL research is a bit light but interesting, as is Neil Ferguson's rebuttal about severing the links between households. He may have only been partially quoted or it may be that the school closures is more about the adults in the equation (pick up times and so on)

They also told us that large gatherings outside didn't spread the virus much, that most people would just get a mild illness and that we could still book holidays.