Will Boris keep us locked down for longer because he was so sick?

[Teddypops]

Do you think that the fact Boris Johnson was so poorly will mean he will be against an early lockdown release.

If he hadn't have caught COVID would this be different?

You see this has been a problem throughout, people using this awful situation to score political points.

Which of course, on your lofty horse, you would never stoop to! The situation is political. Commenting on it is crucial and people should not attempt to shut down debate and examination with crap about scoring points.

That Times article isn't as brilliant as you might think, either. Leaving aside the opinion pieces it is factually incorrect, including simple stuff like dates. If you ignore it's hyped language it is quite shoddy, unchecked disinformation.

We really do deserve better journalists.

I've posted the .gov rebuttal of the Times piece. I'll see if I can do it again, on my phone.

'Which of course, on your lofty horse, you would never stoop to! '

What's a 'lofty horse'?

Look, like it or not the strategy here has been very similar to most other countries. Except our NHS has not been overwhelmed like Italy and Spain's. The times piece was a load of hysterical crap I wonder if piers Morgan wrote it. PM's do not chair cobra meeting in early stages once it became a clear crisis he did.

I'm not a Johnson fangirl. But whoever was in charge would have struggled with the supply and demand problems of PPE and testing facilities.

Don't trouble yourself CuriousaboutSamphire, if I wanted to read that stuff I can find it myself. You've already summed it up anyway - 'shoddy journalism blah blah, inaccurate and misleading blah blah etc'

It's a high horse GetOffYourHighHorse, like your user name...never mind..

The government have said they don't want to risk a second wave, so they're going to have to get the numbers very low.

If you won't even read both sides or any disagreement and brush off anyone who does not agree with you then you can't expect to have your opinion taken seriously.

You can't even enter to a discussion, given your clearly stated intention not to look at all available information.

That infuriates me. Not you personally. But that there is so much monster shouting. So many journalists taking the easy route and so few doing anything worthwhile. Just shout, blame, take a stab at the facts but couch it all in high emotionally charged words.

There's so much shit that's really DOES need to be exposed, reported on, made right. I don't have much respect left for any journalist that sticks with the same crappy point of non enquiry.

I can see why that would be the gossip, but let’s face it, he’s not exactly risk averse.

I think he will take a moderate approach based on the science.

There's so much shit that's really DOES need to be exposed, reported on, made right. I don't have much respect left for any journalist that sticks with the same crappy point of non enquiry.

Samphire, there was no need for me to read the Gov rebuttal as i'd already heard the substance of it on Sunday, sorry if my flippancy irritated you.

I think it is essential for journalists to expose the current issues - the lack of proper planning encouraged by Johnson's failure to engage seriously. What other issues are they failing to address in your view?

My apologies too. It can be hard to read tone, especially when much that I had thought was intentionally daft turned out to be straight, but weird, posts.

Other shit is hard to define, so much has been obfuscated. But most of the things that have been claimed could be properly investigated by any journalist who wanted to.

Take ventilators as an example. Enough time has passed now for anyone of those who were so incensed about the perceived lack to go back and write up what did happen, who was spoken to, what we really do/do not have capacity for, etc. They may or may not find a scandal... But they'd have done some real journalism and we, Joe Public, could be angry about things that are, rather than being wound up by half truths and politicking.

Too much to hope for these days, do you think?

Oh, and I'd want some actual proof that there was a lack of serious engagement. All I have seen so far, including that Times piece and the rebuttal, is one group of people seeing another group doing something in a manner they, with hindsight, thinks should have been done differently.

It's a bit like the "we're rudderless" bollocks a couple of journalists tried to get various secretaries of state to 'admit' early on after Johnson's hospitalisation. We have prime minister, first amongst a group of ministers. They have a strategy, the advisors still advise.

I just don't like opinions and personal perceptions being successfully masqueraded as facts and news.

I listen to the radio news a lot as well as reading. The journalists there are doing a pretty good job of talking to people 'on the ground' with these issues to try to get a better picture.

I disagree that enough time has passed for investigation - we're still right in the thick of it. It's inevitable that there'll have to be a substantial enquiry into the handling of the crisis at some point.

All I have seen so far, including that Times piece and the rebuttal, is one group of people seeing another group doing something in a manner they, with hindsight, thinks should have been done differently.

Well, sure, and you're free to dismiss the Times piece but previous to that we had a ton of stuff on social media and opinion polls suggesting that Johnson was doing a great job and the public were extremely happy with how the crisis had been handled. I certainly didn't feel like that and it was good to see the Times pour a bucket of ice-cold water over it. I also thought the Toynbee article in the Guardian yesterday was really on the mark.

Look, like it or not the strategy here has been very similar to most other countries. Except our NHS has not been overwhelmed like Italy and Spain's. The times piece was a load of hysterical crap I wonder if piers Morgan wrote it. PM's do not chair cobra meeting in early stages once it became a clear crisis he did

Except we didn't, most countries locked down earlier in the infection cycle and test far more, also have much tighter restrictions.

We leave patients to self treat at home (unless you are the PM) its bit odd we haven't had far more hospital admissions, as our infections rates are similar or higher.
We also forgot about care homes, check out the PHE advice up till 31/3....

To miss 1 or 2 Cobra meetings fair enough but he missed 5, didn't work on w/e's, went on hol's and was busy announcing the pregnancy of his partner.

EU lorries loading up PPE from UK warehouses! even the most tory of tories must be able to see something is very much amiss?

I get the point about timing, and yes, another bugbear is questions being asked that can't be answered yet, usually about the effects of decisions. But some facts, timelines, could easily be done now, to evidence what was and was not done when, even if just to put some of the rumours, claims etc to bed.

As for the COBR meetings I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think it is in anyway"immoral or illegal" (as has been claimed on many threads). The relevant minister attended, Johnson was elsewhere.

And the whole argument about testing. If any journalist pulled the early, extant data on tests together, in plain language, there'd be a better understanding about the reasons for the delays, the possible issues with early tests on any country, etc.

It would be helpful if any minister could outline the 'ramping up' to get to 100,000 tests per day, might reassure some, or piss us all off mightily. I know it was mentioned last week bit no journalist picked up on it in a positive manner, so again, we don't actually know more than a sentence or two.

It's that kind of thing that annoys me. We disagree. We're being polite, have worked out where we have misunderstood. That isn't happening often. But much of the fear and anger is grown from difference in opinion about actions or inactions.

@Flies can I just point out I am not a Tory voter. I used to be a Labour Party Member, but sent my card back about 3 years ago, after 30 years and a few generations.

For a variety of reasons I am now politically homeless.

'EU lorries loading up PPE from UK warehouses! even the most tory of tories must be able to see something is very much amiss?'

Of course the allegation of sending ppe to the EU needs clarifying. I prefer facts rather than the msm hysterics though. Maybe we send them gloves and they send us gowns? who knows. It needs asking at the press conferences rather than the repetitive 'when will lockdown end!!' questions.

The PPE thing will turn out to be like England stealing Scotland's kit. Lies based on wilful misunderstanding of what actually happened.

'Except we didn't, most countries locked down earlier in the infection cycle and test far more, also have much tighter restrictions'

Italy and Spain have tested nearly 3 times per million but sadly they've had more deaths www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

If we'd locked down sooner people would not have complied, many are struggling and getting restless now as we enter only week 4 . Behavioural studies demonstrated the compliance would be short lived. It needed to be at the right time to be most effective, which seems to be working.

'The PPE thing will turn out to be like England stealing Scotland's kit. Lies based on wilful misunderstanding of what actually happened.'

Exactly. Twitter/LittleJohn in the Mail said it so it must be true!

And it is important to remember the lack of validity of the early tests. It's because of that error we have been hearing "a bad test is worse than no test" a lot.

Moving to the assumption that signs of COVID would be treated as being COVID was a sensible choice, based on the same decision being made by other countries.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

If we'd locked down sooner people would not have complied, many are struggling and getting restless now as we enter only week 4 . Behavioural studies demonstrated the compliance would be short lived. It needed to be at the right time to be most effective, which seems to be working

Nail on head, we listened to Behavioral scientists instead Public health scientists.
Johnson set the scene in February... he made light of the illness and people went along with this narrative, a more sombre BJ and people would have accepted earlier restrictions.

We are now in week 4, over 800 deaths reported 1000s more in care homes, high levels of new transmissions.... meanwhile, some countries that adopted different strategies/locked down harder and earlier, are coming out of lockdown.
Trajectory is highest death rate in Europe... what exactly is working?

For a variety of reasons I am now politically homeless

That's interesting Samphire, i'm pretty much the same these days though nothing would ever induce me to vote Tory.

After all the argy-bargy about conduct of the press it seems No.10 are briefing against Hancock today. When the Gov behaves in that way (and successive govs have been guilty of it, at varying levels) why castigate the press?

'Nail on head, we listened to Behavioral scientists instead Public health scientists.'

Well no, the scientists all talk together you see and come up with a collaborative plan. Have you heard of SAGE?

'meanwhile, some countries that adopted different strategies/locked down harder and earlier, are coming out of lockdown.'

What like Italy, belgium and Spain who have twice the death rate that we do?

Other people argue we should not have had lockdown at all and that it is all on the say so of one mad cap scientist, Neil Ferguson. Despite the fact most of the world is doing exactly the same thing. Barring Sweden.

Our NHS has coped with the surge though so that is working.

I think it will certainly change his perspective as it would most people

But change the course of government policies no.

I think they government are watching other countries very closely and letting them maybe make mistakes that they can try and avoid