So we are predicted to have the highest death toll in Europe, due to systemic errors made by this government. Do you trust the government to get us out of lock down safely?

[ssd]

I don't. They've f**d up too much. NHS managers are begging for PPE, NHS workers are dying.

This government have really really let us down.

We are predicted to have 40,000 deaths by the end of this.

The only silver lining is is that Labour might get its act together now Keir Starmer is in charge. Things can't get any worse.

And if any tory bots start saying 'at least it's not Corbyn'.. Well save your breath. No one could have made a bigger mess than Boris and Co.

I personally can't understand why people here would need to see widespread UK deaths before locking down. Maybe they would...I am just saying I don't see why. We had seen deaths elsewhere from the viurs, and we are capable of understanding exponential growth and projections. To be honest I think this whole episode has demonstrated that poor education is a public health risk. People don't even need to be educated in advance about epidemics, I wasn't. They just need to be educated in the importance of engaging with facts and how to think logically.

I agree about much of this BUT I don't think we could ever have been Hong Kong. Authorities there have a high degree of information on subjects and use technology to keep tabs on people in the ordinary course - we would have had to pass legislation to do this. And to do it in time would have faced fierce opposition. We don't even have ID cards!

The governments failings are staggering. Jeremy Hunt coming out as the voice of reason says it all. They can't be defended, that much is plain.

But what I want to know is, what's next? If the government didn't take any advice or notice of countries with experience of the virus beforehand, are they listening now to how countries are easing lock down? Will they think they know better, again, and take us out of lock down in a way that causes more deaths?
That's the worry for me. I'll do what I'm told as I'm no expert, but I simply don't trust this government to get it right, using advice from other countries and experts who know what they are talking about.

It's just terrifying.

I personally can't understand why people here would need to see widespread UK deaths before locking down.

I agree, we don't need to see UK
deaths but European deaths. Do you think we could have contained lock down with 1 death in Italy?

But certainly, if the government had locked us down earlier, I would have done it, no question. The deaths coming out of Italy was enough. Saying we had to see people dying here before we would have followed lockdown is ridiculous.

I would have done it no question
We can say these things in hindsight, and some may have unquestioningly obeyed the government but many wouldn't and in order for a lockdown to work it needs to be carefully managed.
Let's not forget that the police are routinely armed in countries which locked down quickly, this has a large impact on the extent to which the public are minded to comply

I'm not saying it isn't a clusterfuck, but in the event of an unprecedented global crisis a clusterfuck is highly likely

A clusterfuck isn't inevitable though.

I would have done it, no question.

You don't speak for 66m people though. I mean I don't rape, murder or abuse children but it's still a problem.

The deaths coming out of Italy was enough.

Which is what I said...

Saying we had to see people dying here before we would have followed lockdown is ridiculous.

Where did I say we have to see people dying here? I said we need to see deaths.

Inevitable no
highly highly likely yes

Not that we shouldn't complain, not that we shouldn't hold them to account

Exactly. We need to hold them to account for the failings so far. As I said before, if they show us a plan for lockdown based on scientific advice and what's happened in other countries, I'll respect them. I don't like the tories, but if this government had John Major and others of his caliber, we wouldn't be in such a mess. But we are where we are, with who we voted for and we have no choice but to be led by people I wouldn't trust with my dog.

We all need the country to get back on its feet and so we do have common ground for working together, of course we must criticise but it is better to criticise constructively

There isn't much to be constructive about. If I find anything I'll let you know.

🙄

@tontie

Of course UK isn't the same as Germany but we are still one of the world's top 10 manufacturing nations.

Companies like Barbour have re tooled to make PPE, this within 2 or 3 weeks... so the basic question is why didn't the govt ask uk manufacturers to start making PPE in March instead of April, TBH a more forward thinking Govt would have asked this in Feb, NHS Providers are saying extra PPE was first ordered 4 weeks ago!!! so just before we locked down... FFS

The NHS has, to both its and the Govt's credit, redeployed itself to be able to manage CV cases, so yes i do think the UK could have mirrored Germany in Jan Feb.

However a quick google will tell anyone interested what the Govt was saying in February.

So yes read and weep, 1000s more have died in the UK than was necessary.

Do you think we could have contained lock down with 1 death in Italy

I honestly am not sure. It depends how widespread the illogical attitudes to this are. Also, if we had locked down very early, we might have been able to keep cases low enough to establish a test, track, trace policy for know cases much earlier and therefore not been in lockdown as long.

It didn't happen. The Professor who made the prediction of 40,000/worse in Europe deaths that is referenced in the title said at the same time that he doesn't want to get into blame and recriminations at this point. That time will come. I think we can assimilate some blaming into the current wave of pressure on and scrutiny of the govt response, but have to try and remain constructive.

*To be honest I think this whole episode has demonstrated that poor education is a public health risk. People don't even need to be educated in advance about epidemics, I wasn't. They just need to be educated in the importance of engaging with facts and how to think logically.
*
This

UK first death is thought to have been 29th Feb, then it was believed to be early March, so of course we could have locked down by mid March.

Instead we were advised to go Racing, Concerts, shake hands etc.

Johnson's job is to lead, not to follow public opinion.

UK first death is thought to have been 29th Feb, then it was believed to be early March, so of course we could have locked down by mid March

We locked down on the 23rd March. I honestly don't think an extra week would have made much difference.

I agree that his job is to lead but if he strays too far from public opinion he will lose the support of the public

Jeremy Hunt coming out as the voice of reason says it all

This is the same Jeremy Hunt that is universally detested by all in the NHS for the shit job he did in running it. How times change.

Of course an extra week would have made a difference!

Even if they’d have had trouble getting everyone to comply, they could have enabled those who wanted/were able to lock down to do so. An earlier ‘work from home if you can’ would have let at least part of the workforce do so.

Every day of restriction matters in an exponential growth curve.

I really do despair when i read that people think a leaders job is not to stray to far away from Public Opinion!
Who the xxxx helps form that opinion? statements on Herd immunity, We are the best in the world at x y or x all helped to form the public's opinion, where as a more sombre BJ in Jan Feb would have led opinion in the direction it needed to be at.

In an exponential growth curve
Indeed and if a butterfly flaps its wings....there are too many unknown variables for accurate predictions to be possible