AIBU - face masks need to be for health and social care staff not the general public

[pigoons]

I am getting increasingly cross with the calls by people (Sadiq Khan and others) that people should have to wear face masks when venturing out in public.

WTF? There is a chronic shortage of PPE for those who need it i.e. frontline health and social care workers etc. Why insist members of the public then need to source mask for limited health gain?

Not to mention the difficulty of sourcing and the cost of buying masks currently - quick search is showing £56 for box of 50 disposable face masks (prior to covid these retailed for £7.99). And don't get me started on home made cloth masks - these have been proven pretty pointless.

World is indeed mad

The European Centre for Disease Control recently updated their guidance about masks saying they should be considered for when out in the community. But they do follow this up with the importance of them being put on and off properly, and that this is non-medical grade ones (eg cloth homemade ones) and that proper PPE should be for frontline workers. They also they face masks should not replace social distancing measures.

Yabu

There is no shortage. There is just a woefully incompetent government. Direct your anger at those to blame.

Yabu, the WHO killed thousands of.people and destroyed the economy with its advice that masks were not useful.

This was wrong and criminally negligent.

Now there are millions of cloth masks in use across the world. You don't need a respirator.

I think part of the problem is the people who are recommending mask wearing aren't specifically saying that medical grade masks aren't necessary... when I see people in Tesco wearing the exact same masks that I use in ITU or the surgical masks used in many of the "lower risk" areas the same day I receive an email saying we have run out of a specific mask... I want to cry, especially when I see people wearing them completely wrong so it has absolutely NO benefit! My trust is sourcing PPE privately on the internet the same as many of you.... so I just see that each of those incorrectly worn masks could be used by one of my colleagues to keep them alive.

There is a worldwide shortage of PPE.

This is a pandemic, it's happening all over the world, all at the same time. Every country on the planet is trying to buy PPE for their frontline staff and carers. Most masks are made in China which started locking down on January 27th.

So we have a supply/demand perfect storm, happening all at once, everywhere on the planet.

None of this lets our own government off the hook for their spectacular failure. There will be a reckoning but now is not the time.

Nobody should be buying any medical or surgical grade masks or respirators for general use. They should all be going to frontline staff and carers.

There is some evidence that homemade cloth masks can prevent some infections, especially in situations where social distancing is difficult or impossible, e.g. public transport, shops, some workplaces (whole other thread!).

We should stop thinking of homemade cloth masks as PPE and start thinking of them in terms of respiratory hygiene - in the same category as using a tissue or the crook of your elbow if you cough or sneeze.

Think of it as a permanent tissue over your nose and mouth that will catch any unexpected cough or sneeze. Or a way of containing your flecks of spittle while berating a disabled person for sitting on a bench.

Health staff need higher grade respirator masks. I do not think that these can be bought at present as all stock have to go to the nhs. These are to protect the wearer. Simpler masks could protect the people near the wearer - from sneezes and coughs - not the wearer themselves. there is in my humble opinion perhaps a place for both - although obviously carers and health staff must have access for their needs first. It is sensible for people who already have masks ( such as diy or cycle masks) to use them- if they help to protect others ( although it’s not clear they do)

I heard a report from a data scientist a couple days ago, after a large expert meeting on the public wearing of masks. His message was it would be useful to put any sort of cloth cover over the mouth as it was pretty effective in preventing normal moisture expulsion from the mouth which could vent the virus to others, if you were carrying it but we're unaware. Doesn't need to be nose as well, although can't hurt. Clearly, if someone is actively coughing/sneezing they should be self-isolating and not out and about. More about protecting others than the wearer, but seems it would add significantly to reducing transmission. Good idea as lockdown is eased. Medical grade masks should be prioritised for healthcare professionals. Not necessary for the public.

Clearly, if someone is actively coughing/sneezing....

Sneezing is not a typical symptom of CV. It's bad enough being treated as a leper when I cough in public (asthma) without being hounded because I have hay fever as well.

Are they meant to be useful? I genuinely don't know I've heard mixed messages both good and bad. I chose not to wear one but if it makes others feel safer then they should be able to wear one although I don't think it should the medical ones. I've also seen ones thrown on the floor in the streets which clearly isn't hygienic. It's quite amusing there's a couple opposite who spend all day smoking outside their house and then wear masks and gloves to the shop...

The couple opposite you are being responsible @Raaaa, they are protecting you and other shoppers. What they do to themselves is their problem

With asthma and hay fever, I’m stuck needing to do the odd cough and sneeze into a mask. I’d rather not.

It doesn't really matter what is specifically causing the sneezing, it's that coughing and sneezing will expell more droplets with greater force into the air that won't be stopped completely by a simple cloth mask, and respiratory viruses more effectively disseminated if present. Sneezing not thought to be a typical symptom, no, but still needs to be dealt with hygienically.

I also have pollen allergies and have periods of sneezing quite powerfully, but generally at home as only going out once every 10 days for shopping. I also carry very strong thick tissues and hand sanitizer in case.

These are the masks I see around

Are these good enough for frontline staff?

tinyurl.com/y74dhklb

People really don't understand just how much PPE is needed to care for a patient.

Patient in a single side room not on a ventilator or with any aerosol generating procedures.
Every time someone enters the room they should be wearing
Gloves, mask, apron and eye protection.
Only the eye protection can be cleaned and re used.
On and average day the following interactions will happen.
Cleaner will clean the room at least 2
Dr's will visit at least 2 drs at least once.
Food in and out at least 3 times so 6
Patient bathing and bed changes possibly multiple times depending on symptoms.
Medication rounds

A relatively well patient might need 30-40 interventions as above everyday.
If a patient is confused, distressed or needs more then that number could be even higher.

So 1 patient requires 120 items of PPE a day.

That is why there are issues with PPE.

Not all masks are created equal and the misuse I see by Jo Public is very frustratingly
People alone in a car wearing masks, people ignoring social distancing because the have a mask on, people pulling them down to smoke or talk.

Just stay the fuck at home.
Stop speculating
It leads to panic buying, people buying crap masks that are worthless, prices rising for everyone.

NHS supply chain used to sell 50 surgical masks for around £2.50 now I'm having to buy at 3/4 times that price for a charity.

In particularly cold winter weather, I sometimes pull a Buff over my lower face to protect my face from getting excessively cold. In minutes it gets soggy from my breath (two winters ago it froze solid where it was not in contact with my skin). It gets pulled up and down with my hands as it slips around and gets uncomfortably damp. I can not see that being a reduced risk of viral transmission!

The NHS needs appropriately graded masks far more than I need to for a weekly shopping trip.

There is no point in putting an ill fitting, pointless object on my face to irritate me and fidget around with as a token security blanket when it is more likely for me to end up rubbing particles on my clothing and hands from it.

Masks also seem to distort peoples' sense of distance encouraging them to stand closer together.

Don't know how to reply to you properly @LilacTree1 but yes they are used/needed by healthcare staff

You do know it’s not medical grade masks? Many countries out of lock down have mandatory masks wearing for the general public.

The data they have now is that it’s useful like having tissue over your mouth when you sneeze. And when you talk. The cloth mask serves that purpose and helps stop spreading your own projectile droplets around. If everyone does that it reduces transmission. It’s to protect others not yourself.

None of this lets our own government off the hook for their spectacular failure. There will be a reckoning but now is not the time

Why? Downing street leaked email says the reason we have shortages of PPE is because Govt didn't order it in Jan/Feb..... i don't want to wait until 2038 when the Govt releases its report into the handling of the 2020/21 CV pandemic....... where the report mildly censures Sir Matt Hancock but recommends no further action..... and that's an optimistic time frame (& outcome) based on other enquiries.

As for masks, if sneezing into you elbow is recommended, then it's logical that a simple cloth mask can limit the amount of virus expelled too.
Again, it comes down to if other countries in Asia and the EU use these things, then why does the UK think it knows best? isn't this just a repeat of our arrogance in jan/feb/march?

www.masks4all.org.uk

Group of docs linking to this site in the papers today.

Again, it comes down to if other countries in Asia and the EU use these things, then why does the UK think it knows best? isn't this just a repeat of our arrogance in jan/feb/march?

@jasjas1973 - yes, it's exactly this. Their arrogance is absolutely impressive. The problem is that this arrogance is killing people.
But if people are still ready to defend these incompetents' actions, how can we expect them to change their behaviour?!

I can't believe that I am seeing people here commenting that the Gov is right: we don't need to wear anything etc. It's pure madness.
But at the same time they scream and shout that this is not a totalitarian country. Hmm...seeing how easily manipulated people are....sorry, but things are not very far awar from a totalitarian, ignorant society.

@BogRollBOGOF I completely agree. I saw a woman in the supermarket wearing one and asking a member of staff where something was, the staff couldn't understand what she was saying as she was talking through the mask so the woman ended up going right up to her and pulling it down to talk. No social distancing there. I don't fancy a damp cloth on my face tbh

There is also a risk they do more harm than good if the public wear them so the NHS currently does not recommend that we do. If the issue is not wanting us to spit etc on other people my cap with plastic over face visor might also be useful (and feels less dangerous for me to wear than a mask somehow as all your own breath is not pushed back into you and it is no soggy and germy as masks can feel). It is a kind of face shield or visor which I think you can still buy on amazon. They also would stop someone directly spitting on tyo your face. However they are obviously nothing like a full mask particularly one that stops tiny covid particles getting through l like the RRP3 www.rdash.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Appendix-47-Surgical-Face-Mask-FFP3.pdf

I've been wearing one in the supermarket for weeks. There is no issue understanding or hearing people at all. Unless you are deaf and lip read.