To think dying with Covid 19 is not the same as dying of Covid 19?

[Frage]

My grandpa died with heart problems. However, they didn't kill him (he died of something else).

AIBU to think people should stop thinking that 'dying with' CV is the same as 'dying of' it?

I read somewhere that in the UK without any epidemic or anything, around 1400-1600 people die each day.
Because I am an anxious person I am telling myself the majority of the cv deaths are included in this figure. But I know i am likely wrong.

Wow - will try to catch up.

Interested to hear how the Germans are calculating this (as you might guess from the username...) @BovaryX I meant to look this up myself, but haven't got round to it.

Shimy, I'm not so sure. What if someone tested positive for CV but had only minimal symptoms - then had a massive and fatal heart attack? What would s/he have died of then?

In those circumstances, I doubt they would even have been tested for COVID-19 seeing as they don't test for minor CV symptoms, the patient would at most have been self-isolating. If it was a massive heart attack, there wouldn't be time for the results of a COVID-19 test to come back.

So the cause of death would obviously be a heart attack.

eg the 21 year old Chloe Middleton.
Died of a heart attack but had a cough.
Coroner recorded it as possible Covid but hospital treated it as a heart attack ...
she was never tested for covid

Mittens
Look up the newspaper coverage of it though ....
and the two teenagers since then ....
not tested for covid ....

Death certificates are made up of 4 parts:

1(a) Disease or condition that directly lead to death.

This could be pneumonia, acute kidney failure, multi-organ failure, pulmonary oedema, sepsis, etc.

1 (b) Other disease or condition, if any, leading to 1 (a).

This could be left-ventricular heart failure, chronic kidney disease, a cancer, a fracture with long-lie, a virus such as Corona virus, etc.

1 (c) Other disease or condition, if any, leading to 1 (b).

Something like diabetes may go here. Any condition that lead to another condition that caused death.

II) Other conditions CONTRIBUTING TO THE DEATH but not related to the disease or condition causing it.

Conditions such as previous surgery, chronic conditions such as dementia, Parkinson's, obesity, etc.

An example might be

1a) acute kidney failure
1b) Fractured hip with associated long-lie (e.g. fell over and didn't get help for 2 days).
1c) Osteoporosis
II) Dementia

So, a confused patient with dementia fell over and broke their hip, then because they weren't found for 36 hours, they went into kidney failure due to dehydration.

So Coronavirus may be listed on the certificate as a contributory factor or a primary factor.

It's splitting hairs a bit. Would they have died from CV19 if they hadn't had cancer? No. But would they have died at this time if they hadn't got CV19? No.

Someone who has been hit by a bus just after testing positive would still be classified as someone who died with covid 19. Doesn't mean covid 19 killed them.

The problem with the figures we get is that they have absolutely no context whatsoever. Because context doesn't sell or doesn't frighten people into staying indoors.

But so little is known about Coronavirus that it isn't really possible to know with any certainty that a heart attack with CV19 isn't a heart attack of CV19. Unless a PM shows cardiomyopathy or hugely atherosclerotic vessels, or some other condition that 'should' lead to a heart attack, then there has to be an assumption that it was because they had CV19.

As an example my F had Parkinson's and a number of strokes, the last one of these being a major one which put him in hospital. But his actual death was caused by sepsis so that was noted as the cause of death. He could have died of a major stroke not long afterwards but he didn't.

The virus is not called Covid 19 the illness is caused Covid 19. The virus is called SARS-CoV-2.

Lots of men die with prostate cancer
not many men die from prostate cancer

Prostate cancer is one of the leading causes of cancer death in men (if not the leading cause of cancer death) it kills over 10k men a year, sounds like quite a lot to me.

www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/mortality/common-cancers-compared#heading-One

If they tested positive for Covid with minimal symptoms, I would assume at some point they recovered (became COVID negative). THEN as you say, had a heart attack. It means they died of a heart attack.

If the two overlapped, so was positive for Covid-19 with very mild symptoms then had a heart attack/got hit by a bus, then they died of the latter not the former.

Heart attacks usually occur due to undetected long term pre existing conditions wether that’s high Cholesterol etc. In this case, nothing to do with the very recent diagnosis.

(Hoping a Doctor comes along to clarify further).

Germany record deaths in the same way we do. They are testing, testing, testing. And that is bringing their death toll much lower than the rest of us. Read Andrew Neil’s tweets on this. It is incorrect to say they record covid deaths differently. It’s been debunked time and again

www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/mortality/common-cancers-compared#heading-One

So it's the 2nd cause of death in men, wasn't sure if it was first for men and lung overall or second for men. Either way it's a huge number and if people didn't smoke would probably be higher than lung cancer.

*loobylo01234 a lot of people have been saying they record deaths differently, not sure why but their deaths are slowly creeping up now as well. Supposedly it was running through a much younger population in general to start with than Italy.