NHS trying to force me to do a different job for less money

[formerchild]

This post is obviously very outing so I am using an anonymous account but I am a MN regular.

I have worked for the NHS for several years as a health care assistant/support worker for a different trust to the one I am currently in. Last year I applied to this trust for a position as a trainee nurse associate (this is a new role, band 3 pay while studying and then band 4 when qualified, is a foundation degree which can be topped up to a fully qualified nursing degree).

I was successful and began the induction process at the end of February which included two weeks working on my base placement ward. I am also expected to attend university as part of this course and attended a full week (via online learning) last week.

Since then, the trust have decided to cancel the course ("frustrated" contract due to Covid 19). We had all been hearing rumours that it was going to be deferred from Tuesday of last week but were not told anything officially until Monday this week (yesterday). We were sent a letter from the lead nurse with our options which are as follows:

1. those from within the trust could go back to wherever they worked prior to commencing the course on the band 2 wage that they were on previously and have a guaranteed place on the course when it restarts

2. those from outside of the trust (which is many of us in this cohort) could stay on as a support worker on the bottom of Band 2 and be allocated a ward on a greatest need basis and have a guaranteed place on the course when it restarts

3. we could leave the trust and would have a priority place on the course when it restarts but that a place is not guaranteed.

We have four days to reply.

Many of us in my cohort left jobs where we were earning equal to, and in some cases more, than we were employed at as band 3's. Now the trust has told us that unless we agree to take a pay cut of almost £2000 (from £19737 down to £18005) we are not guaranteed a place on a course that we have already applied for and been accepted onto.

Most of the others have little choice but to accept the new roles, though they are understandably upset and disappointed with the situation. I have been lucky enough to secure another job which is significantly better paid than the one I currently have, never mind the one I am being "offered" but the trust is saying that unless I take their badly paid job I am no longer guaranteed a place on the course. I feel like this is deeply unfair. Is it even legal? Is there anything I can do? I have emailed all kinds of people to be given the stock response that these are unprecedented times and that they can't help me.

I feel as though the trust is trying to force us to do a job that we didn't sign up to do on the promise that we will get back onto our training programme but they haven't been able to confirmed that they are going to restart the course. They have said that they don't know what the future holds, that the course could be restarting in October or it could be a longer time.

Due to the corona virus my childcare situation has changed massively and I would be working for around £20 per 12 hour day if I was to accept this option by the time I had paid out for childcare, travel costs and parking. Am I really expected to accept a job that I don't want and earn nearly nothing for an indeterminate amount of time?

The other issue is that other local trusts are continuing their tNA training (it's all done under the same university but different trusts in the local area) from the same cohort. So why has ours been cancelled but theirs has not? It doesn't make sense.

Has anybody been in the same situation? Does anybody have any advice?

Tricky one. Can you get some union advice?

I do think that this really is showing how NHS Trusts treat their staff tbh. Some seem to be behaving appallingly to their staff and almost trying to get them to burn out. Others seem to be going out of their way to support staff, realising that there are some very tough times and supporting staff makes us feel much more like we are in this together. I have been amazed by how well my Trust is supporting staff. You can be supportive to this desperate situation without destroying the staff, which some Trusts seem desperate to do.

On a side note, do you definitely need to pay for parking?

Also meant to say I’m not sure how hard these courses are to get onto. If they were easy I would say just leave and find a place later at a better Trust. If they are difficult to get on, as I suspect, then you may have to suck it up.

The difficulty of course is, as you say, it’s not just the pay cut it is the hugely increased childcare costs etc that people are facing to stay in work.

So basically, for the moment they want you to take a pay cut and in 12 weeks time, the course starts again and you go back to what you are on now? Just at the moment, they don't know, because well no-one knows what the future holds now more than ever.

It may not seem like it, but they aren't really forcing you to do anything. Just at the moment, there is no course so really there is no job and here are the options until we know more.

You could stay with the trust and apply internally for other positions, or as pp said a different trust.

Yep, it simply sounds like there is no course for you to do at present due to the current situation and so it's either work in another position if you want to, or give up entirely and those are the two choices. What would your expectation be? To continue on with your HCA work but get paid at band 3 level?

Why don't you get pay protection? I would check with your union, this doesn't sound right. Anyone in my team who is being redeployed are getting pay protection for their current role and their current job is obviously staying open for their return.

. What would your expectation be? To continue on with your HCA work but get paid at band 3 level?

Banding level 3 is still HCA though. There's not a vast amount of difference in terms of competencies

I’d expect to continue at band 3 pay. The OP isn’t asking for a pay rise or to profit from this horrific time. She is simply wishing not to have to take a pay cut while still working her arse off as a key worker in the NHS and facing increased costs to do so.

No, I want to leave the trust to take up a better paid job that I have been offered and still be able to have a guaranteed place on the course once (if) it restarts. They are saying it will potentially be October but they have no idea when it will be and could be a lot longer.

The fact of the pay cut is just what it is. They've got a huge number of people that are now effectively unemployed so they can choose to offer them a pittance and they know they will take it because they have little or no alternative choice. That seems unfair but I am sure it is legal.

FYI prior to this I was a band 3 and am skilled. All skills which I am sure they will expect me to use too when it comes down to it.

Do you have a Contract with the Trust offering the Training?

Is it on Agenda for Change Terms and Conditions?

Is the new job band 3? I think you should stay where you are, push for band 3 pay protection, and do the band 2 job for now.

If my staff chose to leave the job they were in for a better paid one elsewhere, instead of taking the redeployment option, their jobs wouldn't be kept open. I don't think you can expect to keep your place if you choose to leave.

Im glad you got another post. I think its sad and unfair. I'd encourage the other ladies to shop around and not accept. Its horrible to take advantage of ppl risking themselves while paying management d*heads so much.
dont know what to say about the course :(

Oh I see, that makes complete sense but is more difficult. I would still get union advice looking at any contract you have as justforthissays. I’m no expert but would be leaning towards justchecking’s advice of asking for pay protection and staying in the Trust.

That said I would also think seriously against staying with a Trust that thinks it is acceptable to redeploy you with no pay protection. Not all Trusts are like this. This of course depends on how hard the NA course is to get onto - sounds as if you may have no choice but to stay.

Agree with PP - do you have continuous NHS Service?

and are they offering you a new contract for the Band 2?

Sorry, forgot to ask, are you in England, Wales or Scotland?

How competitive was the course when you applied for it? Do you think it's likely you would lose your space and not be able to find another?

Who's your awarding body for your foundation degree? They may be able to put some pressure on the trust to accept everyone back on the course. I would contact them, if you haven't already.

Personally, I would take the higher paid job and hope to be able to get back on the foundation degree next year. Unless it's very competitive, I think you'll be able to do that.

I think you need to write to them explaining why you’re unable to take this offer with pay cut and how it affects your family financially eg hardship etc. You can also speak with HR and send them an email explaining your financial position and requesting their help. I hope someone will be able to help you with this.

I don’t really know how it works but after this half course, would it be easier for you to get an admission to the proper nursing degree course.

They’re being extremely unfair by trying to redeploy you on a lower salary. Taking a huge pay cut isn’t an option. So you either stay and push for pay protection, or leave for a better job and reapply later. I’d start with the former but ultimately expect to end up doing the latter. You can reapply later, you got accepted once so are likely to be accepted again.

I would be so tempted to respond "is this a sick joke?!"
Just awful how they are treating NHS staff in some trusts.
If you haven't already, contact your union, acas and maybe even contact your local MP.
I would also suggest contacting student finance, living off £20 a week with dependents is a joke, for any length of time.
I would defo accept the job you have been offered and question whether I trust an organisation who pulls a course with such short notice, how can you believe they won't do it again?

What does your UNISON rep say? They are pretty on top of this kind of thing.

Thanks for the replies. The union is involved on everyone's behalf, although I hadn't joined yet! They have issued a grievance and are talking about taking it to the media.

It's just so unfair and they are giving us all different information depending what suits them. We've not been given a contract or anything, we are not being told if we can cut down our hours to full time. It's awful.

• If you were employed by the Trust in any other role immediately prior to this training position or if your employment with the Trust commenced as a result of this training position, we can allocate you an AfC Band 2 Clinical Support Work position. The location of this will be confirmed and coordinated by [x named] Lead Nurse, but you will be placed in the areas of greatest need. When we are in a position to commence the training program again, you have a guaranteed place on it (assuming that this is what you want at that time) and recommence the terms and conditions associated with the training position.*

No, the course is unlikely to go ahead in 12 weeks time. They have told us they have no idea when it will recommence. It could be this time next year for all anyone knows. They are unlikely to rush into restarting as they won't want to have to go through this again.

I am happy to wait until the course restarts, I just want a guaranteed place on the course when it does without being forced into agreeing to do a job I don't want to do at the trust.

For what it's worth the better job I have got it still with the nhs but it is with my local trust. Better hours and better money.

The course is funded by health education England, not the individual trusts either so I don't feel I owe them loyalty for that. Especially when they have shown none to us.

Sorry for the multiple posts I keep seeing things I don't think I've replied to:

There is no contract and they are refusing to show us one before the cut off date of when we have to agree to the new job by.

We have no contacts within the trust. We have tried to ring hr but they are not currently taking calls due to being too busy. Most of the numbers given to us are not answering. We don't get emails back.

Have explained my personal circumstances to be told tough luck. Have asked for part time to be told it's up to ward managers once I start work! Some people have been told they can work via the bank some people told they can't by the same person. Some told they will remain on their TNA placement wards others told they must be moved.